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Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by EaglewingIS4031, Jan 12, 2005.
Is Oneness Pentecostalism (the Jesus name only movement) Christian or Cult?
It is quite openly a Cult because not only does it deny the Trinity and the Nicean Creed, it preaches against those teachings.
Google them on the web and you will see a number of Cult Ministry groups that have lots of information and stories of people that have been delivered out of it.
Yeah! I think it is a Cult too!
I have alot of in-laws that are involved in it.
However, I posted the question because the bible doesn't say you are not a Christian if you do not believe the Trinity or the Nicean Creed.
It does however make it clear that you are not a Christian if you do not confess and believe Jesus as Lord! Oneness folks do this!
However, the Jesus of the Bible is same the Trinatarian Jesus of the Nicean creed.
Therefore, I believe it is a cult. Their rules, works salvation, proud pharisiticalism, and controling authority of their pastors also make me believe it is a cult.
Would the 2 people who so far voted for Christian please expalin why they think it is Christian.
Actually the term Trinity can be traced back to the Second Century and the Nicean Creed of 325 AD is only an expansion of the Apostle's Creed of the middle Second Century. This was no new theology but simply a affirmation of it against false teachers.
It is incorrect to say the Christian Church at Nicea made Jesus subordinate to the God of Creation. Nicea was a response to heretics who were actually making Jesus subordinate to God the Father. The Nicean Creed affirms Jesus is "God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father".
While the early Church councils do not carry the same weight as Holy Scripture, they are not irrelevant in that they affirmed the nature of the Godhead, Christology as well as canonized Scripture.
The Oneness theology of the Deity of Christ also is very differant from orthodox Christianity. Some info on the Oneness doctrine can be found at
**False! The Oneness people 'do not' deny that Jesus Christ is Lord. </font>[/QUOTE]I think you missunderstood! When I said: "Oneness folks do this" I meant that Oneness folks do declare Jesus to be Lord and Christ. Unlike most other non trinitarian sects such as the JW's, and LDS's. Which makes it harder to classify Oneness as a cult according to the criteria of denying the Trinity.
You also quoted Revelation 1:8
This verse is in opostion to Oneness theology. the Oneness position denies the eternality of Jesus (the role of the Son), claiming that he was begotten and therefore had a begining.
Jesus is the one speaking here and he is proclaiming his eternality.
Just before this, in verses 5-7 both Jesus and the Father are mentioned.
Notice the "his Father" in v.6! What is the anticedant of the pronoun "his" in verse 6?
Both the father and the Son are mentioned, and the Son decalres to be eternal in verse 8. He does it again in vers 11.
He declares to be eternal again in verses 17-18. And these verses are a big stumbling block for the Oneness position of the Godhead.
In many Oneness tracts and other literature that I have seen,( Most of it put out "World Aflame Press" the UPC's publishing arm.)they ask the question "Who died on the cross?" and then offer several posibilities such as "Did a man die on the cross?" "Did God die on the cross?" "Can God die?" "Can 1/3 of God die?"
Well verse 18 answers that question emphaticaly. Doesen't it? Verse 18 makes perfect sense if it is viewed through the lens of the classic Trinatarian position. But v.18 is a stumbling block for Oneness. I've taken those tracts and showed it along with Rev. 1:18 to many Oneness folks and they stumble. However, one UPC preacher that I discussed it with did his best to expalin it but he strained at a gnat and swallowed a camel.
Oneness people should stay away from Rev. 1 when defending their position.
In Christ <><
That looks like a great site Kiffen, thanks?
Could someone Tell me If I am Oneness or
Trinitarian basede upon my beliefs:
1. the Bible says , Behold Oh Israel, The Lord our God is one God.
2. In Him ( Jesus ) dwells all the fulness of The Godhead bodily.
3. The Word ( Jesus) became flesh and dwelt (pitched his tent) among us.
4. We beheld his glory , the glory of the only begoten of The Father, full of Grace and truth.
5. Of His (fullness) we have all recieved , grace for grace. ( see the word fullness in no. 2.
6. When Jesus was on the Cross He said to the Father , Into thine hands do I commit my spirit.
7. I believe that The Father, The son , and The Holy Spirit are not parts of God but all the Godhead is 100% God. Based upon IJohn 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven , the Father, the word, and the Holy Spirit and these three are one."
What is the criterea used to determine if a group is a cult?
Is a particular creed the criterea? If so, Why?
Is a denominational statement the criterea? If so, Why?
did i spell criterea correctly?
Hey atestring, I would say that you are 'Oneness' and don't realize that God has revealed to you who He is.
Notice I didn't say who 'they' are.
BTW, you did misspell criteria, but we get the message. You are an OK guy.
If you believe that these are three separate persons and yet one God, you believe in the trinity.
If you believe that these are simply three roles or manifestations of one God, then you are Oneness. I am a father, a son, and a husband. Does that make me a trinitarian. No, that is the Oneness belief. One person (god) but three roles.
I am one person (body, soul, and spirit), and all three make one. Without any one part I am not me. That is trinitarian. But with God it is three actual persons (not just parts) that make up one God--the triune Godhead.
This page explains the beliefs of this cult pretty clearly.
Oneness people and groups like to suggest that there was no trinity doctrine in the church prior to the Council of Nicea and that having that doctrine was all some type of conspiracy.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Look in church history at the actual reason as to why the council was held, Gnostics were preaching false doctrine in the church, so the Creed was written as a summary of the churches beliefs that had been accepted scince it began.
That is why the groups that teach against the Trinity do not permit there people to go to Bible Colleges not run by them. The Worldwide Church of God in the late 1970's sent some students to Fuller theological college where they learnt about the Trinity and saw the actual Primary Documents and how it was proven to have been a belief of the church. Resultingly they went back to the WCOG with this and the church then split over it.
If these Oneness type groups are so afraid of Bible College, what is it that they have to hide? Why are they so scared of the teachings at Bible Colleges? Could it be that the Bible College actually proves there sources unlike the groups that simply attempt to knock them down with no Primary Documents, just brainwashing to back up their claims?
Not Christian. Voted that way but not sure whether it makes them a 'cult'; it depends what your definition of 'cult' is I suppose. Nicaea and Constantinople I merely affirmed what the Church had always believed, contra Arius.
Yours in Christ
Ben, the Oneness churches don't have anything to hide. Why would any church send their students to Colleges other than their own?
It's just like on this BB, I can't post a link to show what you all say about the bliefs of the Oneness doctrine are false.
Example: dianetavegia posted a link that contradicts what "David Bernard" believes and made a mockery out of the UPCI.
Below is just an example of many false accusations. If you will notice, what is said is that Oneness Pentecostals believe that one has to receive "The gift of tongues" to be saved.
Read what David Bernard says and you will see that he never says anything about the "gift of tongues." It's just a play on words, by the writer, out of ignorance, as in uneducated!
Many Oneness Pentecostals believe that Christians must receive the gift of tongues, or glossolalia, in order to be saved. It should be pointed out that such Oneness Pentecostals do not believe that the gift of tongues in itself will save individuals; however, any individual who has received the Holy Spirit, and thus will be saved, will also receive and exhibit the gift of tongues. David K. Bernard explains,
Tongues in and of themselves do not save. Nevertheless, the relationship between the Spirit baptism and tongues is similar to that of faith and works. We are saved by faith, not works, yet works always accompany genuine faith. Likewise, tongues cannot save us, yet the Spirit baptism produces tongues as the initial sign…A Spirit baptism without tongues is a nonbiblical concept; the Bible does not discuss this possibility. We should always expect speaking in tongues when someone receives the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
Hey MEE! What about Rev.1:17-18?
That quote is all just double-speak. So if you don't speak in tongues as an evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit you are not saved. Right?
Therefore it is necessary to speak in tongues to be saved.
What about it? All I can say is that it was Jesus talking to John.
DHK, read it again real s-l-o-w! Then maybe you will understand what is being misinterpreted by the writer.
Speaking in tongues does not save a person. It is the evidence that one has been filled with the Spirit of God!..just like they did in the Bible. ACTS 2:4...don't you just hate that book? Gets in your way, doesn't it?
Sorry, but you have to accept whether you like it or not.
Some think that all speaking in tongues is called the "Gift of tongues," which is false and not required for salvation.
Didn't 'Link' teach you anything?
Ben, the Oneness churches don't have anything to hide. Why would any church send their students to Colleges other than their own?</font>[/QUOTE]Wake up Mee and I mean that with all due respect, the Oneness and the Apostolic Churches have plenty to hide. If they genuinely believed that there people were commited to their false teachings, they would have no problem with them attending any Bible College of there choosing to do any number of subjects that could be deemed compatible.
I am a Seventh Day Baptist, yet I study at a Mainstream Christian Bible College which is a mix of Baptist Union and Anglican people and a scattering of various other denominations. Baptists of various groups study in all manner of different Bible Colleges. Fuller Theological Seminary is probably one of the best colleges there is, and people come from denominations all over the world to study there.
The Primary Documents of Church History prove conclusivley that the Church taught the Trinity. Justyn Martyer talks about it as do many others.
The Nicean Creed was put there to seperate the Gnostics from the True Believers. What is so amazing about it, is that it draws a line in the sand for us today and seperates those like the Oneness groups that teach False Doctrine from the Body of Christ.
It is one thing to say that you dont understand what the Trinity is, or what the Creed may mean. Yet the Oneness Pentecostals specifically go out of their way to teach against those things. Doing so, they are in darkness.
I would encourage you to get in touch with "Let Us Reason" ministries. It will set you free and as the Bible says, If the Son has made you free, you shall be free indeed!