Only the holy and forgiving ones will see Jesus!

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by evangelist-7, Jul 22, 2012.

  1. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7
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    Before the foundation of the world, God “elected” certain people to be His (Ephesians 1:4).
    God knew who would be willing to be sanctified unto holiness (He knows peoples’ hearts).
    Note: even born-again Christians can refuse to be sanctified, and fall away from the faith.
    This is where the election and free-will verses fit together.

    “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction,
    and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way
    which leads to (eternal) life, and there are few who find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14)

    You will see below that this is NOT talking about many non-Christians vs. a few Christians.
    This is talking about many non-Christians vs. the few God’s elect Christians!


    Let’s start with Jesus’ Great Commission
    “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations …
    teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;
    and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:19-20)

    Jesus commanded them to make real disciples: not just believers, not born-again ones, etc.
    There is only one type of true Christian, and that is a true disciple.
    And Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would always be with all disciples forever.


    Next, let’s be clear about Ephesians
    Ephesians talks about predestination, election, the sealing of the believer as a guarantee, etc.
    But, all of these great and glorious promises are only for those who are faithful.
    Ephesians 1:1 “Paul … to the saints who are in Ephesus, and (who are) faithful in Christ Jesus …”

    Jesus warns to count the cost
    “… which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has
    enough to finish it … whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.” (Luke 14:27-33)

    “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross (die to self), and follow Me.
    For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
    For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?” (Matthew 16:24-26)
    ”He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.” (John 12:25)

    “life” means worldly life ---- “My sake” means Christ’s desires ---- “it” means eternal spiritual life

    Holiness is required
    “… but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written,
    Be holy, for I am holy.” (1 Peter 1:15-16)
    “… He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world,
    that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love …” (Ephesians 1:4)
    “… to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight, if indeed you continue
    in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel …” (Colossians 1: 22-23)

    More verses: 2 Timothy 1:9, 2 Peter 3:11, Romans 12:1, Ephesians 5:26-27, 1 Peter 2:5-9, Rev. 20:6, 21:8

    Perfection is required
    “Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.” ( Matthew 5:48)
    “Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom,
    that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.”(Colossians 1:28)
    “But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete …” (James 1:4)

    More verses: John 17:22-23, Galatians 3:3-4, Ephesians 4:13, Hebrews 10:1

    Forgiveness is critical
    “… if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you
    your trespasses. But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses.
    (Mark 11:25-26, Matthew 6:14-15)
    Forgive, and you will be forgiven.” (Luke 6:37)
    “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?’ Jesus said
    to him, ‘I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.’ ” (Matthew 18:21-22)
    “And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay
    all that was due to him. “So My heavenly Father also will do to you -- if each of you,
    from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.” (Matthew 18:34-35)
    “If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.” (Luke 17:3)

    Born-again Christians die every day who haven’t tried very hard to be perfect and holy.
    And many died who had unforgiveness towards someone! They’re all in hell right now!


    I often wondered if all of this had to do with heavenly rewards … but NO, it does not!

    “… the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate,
    for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and
    murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars,
    for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine …” (1 Timothy 1:9-10)

    “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived.
    Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous,
    nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

    Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life,
    and may enter through the gates into the city (New Jerusalem). But outside are dogs and sorcerers
    and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.” (Rev. 22:14-15)

    If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him
    and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words …” (John 14:23-24)

    Is anyone going to Heaven to see Jesus who does not love Him?
    .
     
  2. billwald

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    Except that the doctrine of predestination claims that God did not predestine
    on the basis of foreknowledge.
     
  3. evangelist-7

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    Yes, but that is a doctrine of men, right? ... Or is it absolutely clear from Scripture?

    I have a list of Scriptures which talk about God knowing peoples' hearts, etc. etc.
    But, maybe this has to do with after they are born?

     
  4. savedbymercy

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    Well that will be everyone He died for !
     
  5. evangelist-7

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    I now see "the elect" as being the holy and forgiving ones.
    A small percentage of those who think they're Christian.
    An infinitesimal percentage of people on the earth.

    Amazing about Ephesians, eh? ... Only written to the saints who are the faithful in Christ Jesus.

    What's faithful mean? ... Faithful to obey Jesus' commands to the best of our ability?
    3 of those commands: Be holy. Be perfect. Be forgiving.

    .
     
    #5 evangelist-7, Jul 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2012
  6. savedbymercy

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    evan

    Thats everyone Christ died for too !
     
  7. evangelist-7

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    I'm very impressed by your incredibly ingenious short and quick replies!

    Are you implying that Jesus only died for the elect ...
    those who are the overcomers, those who are sanctified unto holiness, perfection, forgiveness, etc.?

    Anyone else care to take a shot at this?

    .
     
  8. savedbymercy

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    What about all whom Jesus died for ? Will they see Jesus ? Are they all Holy ?
     
  9. savedbymercy

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    evan

    Yes !

    This applies to all the Elect Christ died for !
     
  10. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    evan

    Its a believer, everyone Christ died for becomes a believer, hence faithful ! His Death makes them Just Rom 5:19 and the Just shall live by Faith !
     
  11. evangelist-7

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    So, you think everyone sitting in the pews (all the time believing) are the elect.
    WOW! ... you do have faith, don't you.

    I would advise you to read Jesus' letters to the leaders of the 7 churches in Rev 2-3.
    He talks about the shortcomings of the believers sitting in all of those pews.
    He warns them that they need to be overcomers to inherit the promises.
    And there are countless other warnings from Jesus and Paul.

    .
     
  12. savedbymercy

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    evan

    Where did I state that ?
     
  13. billwald

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    What evidence is there that God only "elected" a small minority? Why Would God want the large majority of his children in Hell?
     
  14. billwald

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    The only possible test for election is continuing good works, so taught John. In other words, evidence of salvation is good works. "True Believers" hate it when others are better neighbors than they are.
     
  15. Yeshua1

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    the ONLY family God has are those who have been saved by the garce of God, washed by/in blood of the lamb!

    ALL others are children of their father, the Devil!

    IF God did not choose to elect unto salvation some, ALL would have gone to hell!

    And don't know how many god has chosen to elect in Chrsit, what is important is if I know and you also that we were one of them!
     
  16. savedbymercy

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    Everyone Christ died for, will see Him and Be with Him in Glory forever, that is the effectiveness and accomplishment of His Death ! To say otherwise is a direct attack against His Saving Death !
     
  17. Moriah

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    Jesus died for all men, all men have a chance to be saved, if they believe.

    In this next passage, read how many times Jesus says "whoever."

    John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's only begotten Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

    Read this next scripture, Jesus says "Whoever."

    John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.

    How can they reject Jesus if they are as Calvinists say "incapable" of believing Jesus?


    “Whoever” is whoever. This is plain and simple. Calvinists use special exegesis to twist the scriptures. Whomever in the world believes turns into whomever in the world of believers who believe.


    Read this next scripture.

    1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

    Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. This scripture shows that Jesus saves any who come to him in belief; it is a choice of all men, if they only would not love darkness instead of the light.

    God wants all men saved. Read how many times scripture says "all men.”


    John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    1 Timothy2:3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

    Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

    1 Timothy 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

    That scripture right there should stop any one from ever misunderstanding and believing Calvinism ever again. How much plainer language does it have to be? "Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.” All men have the chance to obey and believe.



    You see in Acts 17:27 God wants men to seek him, and that God is not far from "each one of us." In addition, see in Acts 17:30 God commands "all people everywhere" to repent. Remember, Calvinists say not all men. Clearly, Calvinists beliefs are different from what God says. See also in 31, God has given proof to "all men."
     
  18. billwald

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    >Its a believer, everyone Christ died for becomes a believer, hence faithful ! >His Death makes them Just Rom 5:19 and the Just shall live by Faith !


    Paul taught gentiles that salvation is by God's grace. Paul taught Jews that salvation is by (God's) grace through faith.

    Why two obviously different teachings?

    What is the difference between "by" and "through?"
     
  19. billwald

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    >IF God did not choose to elect unto salvation some, ALL would have gone to hell!

    Not electing the vast majority doesn't compute, does it? God ran out of "electing" energy? The volume of Heaven is smaller than the size of Hell?


    >And don't know how many god has chosen to elect in Chrsit, what is important is if I know and you also that we were one of them!

    How do you KNOW? Because of something you did or said? Did you get a private revelation from God? If so, how do you know it didn't come from Satan?
     
  20. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ
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    Not true.

    Only those who place their faith in Christ, and Christ alone, will be saved.
     

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