Open letter to God

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by npetreley, May 12, 2007.

  1. npetreley

    npetreley
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    Dear God,

    I need to have a word with you. First, let's cover your strong points. You're a good God, or at least we can say you probably mean well. Obviously, being God, whether you're good at it or not, means you can't sin. Sin is disobedience, and you can't disobey yourself. So no matter how many mistakes you've made, nobody can accuse you of being an "evil" God no matter what you do. To be evil, you'd have to sin (disobey yourself) and that's logically impossible.

    Anyway, people have been fussing on the Baptist Board about whether or not you're the author of sin. They're saying that if you're the author of sin, that makes you an evil God - not in those words, but that's the gist.

    Personally, I don't know what it means to be the "author" of sin. How do you invent disobedience to yourself? I don't get it. I can see how you can create someone and then will that the person will be disobedient to you, sure. But I don't see how that NECESSARILY translates into you being an evil God. It just means that it was your will that your creature would disobey you. I'm not saying that's what you did -- FAR FROM IT -- but that's the only way I can understand what it means to be the "author of sin", since you, yourself, can't sin, and sin isn't something you can create. It's something someone -- ostensibly your creation -- does. The question is whether or not the creature does it according to your will.

    So let's put it this way. The fuss is about whether or not it is/was your deliberate will to bring sin into your creation by way of your creatures.

    Could you do that? Sure, I suppoose. It's your creation. But personally, and this it the key point here so don't miss it, I don't trust you enough to have a good reason to create, according to your will, someone who will sin. How could you have a good reason for doing that? And since I can't trust you to do it without you, yourself, being tainted, then you can't possibly have done it. Flawless logic, right?

    So, let's assume the logical conclusion that nobody would ever sin according to your will.

    So if it wasn't your will that sin enter your creation, then how did it happen? Free will, right? Okay, for the sake of argument, I'll buy that. But if you really didn't will for sin to enter your creation, and you created creatures with free will who you KNEW would sin, I can think of no other explanation than you're just plain incompetent.

    Don't feel bad. Plenty of they mythical gods were incompetent, too, so you're in good company. But let's face facts. If you didn't will it to happen, then sin entered the creation in spite of your will. You screwed up. Plain and simple.

    Yeah, I heard all that stuff about how you couldn't display your glory unless you demonstrated your wrath against unrighteousness, and you can't do that without sin. But then if it's unrighteousness that you, yourself willed, then they really don't deserve that wrath, do they? I mean, how could you still blame them, for who resisted your will? It's a rhetorical question you probably wouldn't understand, so never mind.

    Now, I'm going to set you straight in a moment, but I have to admit I can't give you any advice about satan, which precedes all this next part. You don't give us enough information for me to set you straight about what happened to him. But I can show you how NOT to screw up creation next time.

    First, let's have a look at what you did:

    Okay, bad move right there. Let's see why.

    Bzzzt. Now, this is just plain stupid. You plant a tree that has good looking fruit and say that it's off limits.

    Now don't give me any excuses about how you wanted to test Adam with the tree. You know everything, right? So you HAD to know he was going to be disobedient and eat from the tree, right? What's to test?

    So if you REALLY didn't want him to disobey you, why the heck did you plant an off-limits tree there in the first place? What were you thinking? Dumb, dumb, dumb.

    So here's tip #1 for your next creation:

    1. Don't plant any trees in the garden that are off-limits. I don't care if you think they look pretty, or you think you need it for that nice tri-level effect with the path going down the middle. If you're really that picky, create a tree that looks the same but bears shiny wax fruit or someting harmless. Same diff, right? Cosmetics, no danger.

    Here's tip #2:

    2. This next tip is probably unnecessary if you simply follow tip #1. But just as a precaution, how about next time you DON'T let satan into the garden, okay? I mean, we both know he doesn't exactly have the best interest of the human race in mind. So why let a trouble-maker in there? Put a big KEEP OUT sign outside the garden just to be safe.

    Honestly, God, to put the tree in there with Adam and Eve and THEN let a trouble maker in the garden to mess with their heads? I mean, that is so stupid that if I didn't know better, I'd have to say you deliberately set up Adam and Eve to fail. It was so easy NOT to have that outcome. No tree, no trouble-maker, no disobedience.

    So if it's not your will that sin enter your creation, then just follow my tips next time. And if you need any more advice, just give me a ring. I'm kind of partial to platinum.

    Nick, Mr. Wiser Than God

    [No, I am not back, and I don't plan to participate in this thread. I asked a number of times to have my account deleted and nobody has done it yet. Maybe it's not possible, but nobody has told me that either way. So I figured I'd start a fun thread. Anyway, God bless you all, given that he's actually competent enough to do that, and enjoy.]
     
    #1 npetreley, May 12, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 12, 2007
  2. Humblesmith

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    uhhh.........hmmmm.........

    Should I point out that "author of sin" typically means "efficient cause?"

    Or that Adam was created morally pure, and that he could only sin in a non-moral area, such as disobedience?

    Nah, I'll just go back to tracking Craig Biggio's quest for the all-time hit-by-pitch record. It's more consistent.
     
  3. webdog

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    One pretty blasphemous post, IMO. I wouldn't worry about the administrators deleting your membership...I'd worry about the Almighty God deleting your life! Calling what He does "stupid"...and claiming to set Him straight is supposed to be a "fun thread"? Can't say I enjoyed any of that...
     
  4. skypair

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    Web -- it sounds worse than it is. He's sinning in ignorance. :tear:

    First off, he's got a flawed idea of what sovereinty means.

    #1 if God is truly sovereign, He could do whatever He wanted with His authority and control! He could actually let Adam name all the beasts that He Himself had created AND not lose one iota of His the sovereignty He wished to keep to Himself!

    If He was God, He could let Lucifer collect all His "attaboys" and not have to "make the rounds" Himself!

    But npeterely is just being classical Calvinist. "God didn't give me no authority and therefore, though 'elect,' I don't exercise any. Everything I do is somethin' God told me to do. If I were 'nonelect,' everything I do would be somethin' God programmed me not to do."

    How's that for simplifying your ole free will theology!?

    skypair
     
  5. skypair

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    Are you saying that God doesn't KNOW what sin is? Or that He doesn't have the POWER to sin? His "rules" for Himself are far superior to His rules for us. If your god is not all-knowing (doesn't know what sin is) or all-powerful (can't do despite His own rules if He so chose), then there is, indeed, a higher authority than Him. It is by Self-discipline that God is God and we saw that in Christ!

    Calvinists are saying that, yes. Calvinists like R.C.

    Then you ought to do more listening than you do talking on the subject. :laugh: But I see you can't resist putting your ignorance on full display.

    "Thy will be done." Is that then the "will" that will be "done" in heaven?? Or do you admit to a different "dispensation" there (break it to me gently if you actually DO believe in dispensations, nperetely :laugh: ).

    Has it at all occurred to you that if God has the knowledge and power to sin but doesn't that maybe men "in His image" could sin on account of them being "gods" (quote David and Jesus) who have the same choices?? But THEN who would be the "author of sin?"

    Right. Or free will combined with Satan who IS the author of sin.

    No, the creation that God gave personal "godship" to was incompetent. The very point of man being in God's image is that man is an "I am" -- a distinct, god-like personality who might, if "tested," rather draw glory to self rather than to true God (especially at the temptation of a woman and a serpent! :laugh:).

    No, God is a good "Supervisor" -- he knows how to recover from His "employees" mistakes. Your whole line of reasoning shows not the least understanding of sovereignty and its uses.

    Actually, let's have a look at how salvation works, smartie. Adam, like each of us at birth, had an "unconfirmed positive disposition" toward God. We ALL were innocent and the "Garden of Eden episode" was to show us that life is a "test." The "grades" are a) "CONFIRMED negative disposition" toward God, disobedience, or b) "CONFIRMED positive disposition" toward God, belief. You must come to a point where you decisively, personally, of your own will, eternally confirm your POSITIVE disposition toward God. That is what all faith is about. I don't need to tell you what the consequences of each is, do I?

    Do you think for one minute we'd be where we are if Adam had told Eve, "Naw, I think I'll pass on the fruit today?" Do you think God couldn't replace Eve in a similar way that He "replaced" Abel with Seth? You're so full of this idea that the way it happened is the way God willed it. What about Christ's crucifixion? Did God want the Jews to assassinate their "King?" Did He ever prophecy that they would? Pharoah letting the people go -- what would have changed anything if Moses had said, "Let my people go." and Pharoah had replied, "How's tomorrow sound?" and just let them go it?

    Yeah, God KNEW it all beforehand -- but the implementation wasn't His according to will. It was according to His foreknowledge and foreordination -- just like YOUR salvation is.

    skypair
     
    #5 skypair, May 12, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 12, 2007
  6. mnw

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    If this is an open letter to God:

    a. Why post it on a public forum?

    b. Why are any of you butting in?

    c. Does God read the Baptist Board?

    :) :thumbs:
     
  7. Pastor Larry

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    I think you guys are missing the rhetorical device known as irony, and at the same time failing to see just how much this resembles what you sound like.
     
  8. ituttut

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    Better burn that letter before you burn.

    Will you praise Him in His love for you, or will you judge your maker?

    Psalms 8: 1. O Lord, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
    2. Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
    3. When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
    4. What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
    5. For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
    6. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
    7. All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
    8. The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
    9. O Lord our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

    If He is your Father, you are in for it. If not, keep on having fun and enjoy the heck out of this life with what it has to offer you. He won't care, for you are not one of His.

    Your only hope is to confess the name of the Lord Jesus Christ in your heart and with your mouth, while you still have breath. If you have done this, then are you not yet still only a "babe", still babbling without understanding your salvation, as you understand salvation?
     
    #8 ituttut, May 12, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 12, 2007
  9. mnw

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    I'm beginning to remember why I stopped coming to the Baptist Board for a while there... looks like it is time to go again...
     
  10. Pastor Larry

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    Ittutut,

    As I said, you are totally missing the rhetorical device here. I think Npetreley is totally mocking the unbelief found in many people on this topic here on the BB. And it is hilarious.
     
  11. ituttut

    ituttut
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    If you say so, then it must be so.
     
  12. Amy.G

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    I haven't missed it. I haven't missed the enormous amount of bitter sarcasm either.
    Bro. Larry, I'm sorry you think some of us sound like NP.

    I think NP needs to ask God's forgiveness for such a sad post. I think it's very disrespectful to God, even though he aimed it towards those of us who believe in free will. At the very least, it's disrespectful and unloving towards his fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

    That's just my humble opinion. And that's all I have to say on the matter.

    :1_grouphug:
     
  13. Pastor Larry

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    No, not really.

    I don't think some of you sound like NP at all. NP is a very well reasoned and clear speaking poster, in my experience. He wrote this, it seems to me, to sound like you; not for you to sound like him.

    I disagree. I think some here would do well to pay close attention to it and see just what you are accusing God of.
     
  14. Blammo

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    We're not accusing God of being stupid. You and Nick are. I mean, I know you don't believe we are right, but if we are, you and Nick have just accused God of being dumb.

    I don't blame you though. You really don't understand what us Non-Cals believe. I don't believe anyone on the entire Baptist Board thinks anything takes God by suprise. We don't think God makes mistakes. We don't think God is powerless to stop things that go against what He desires. Knowing what will happen, having the ability to change it, but choosing to allow it and use it to glorify yourself, is not the same thing as making it happen.

    I guess your argument is: Either God made it happen, or it took Him by suprise. Isn't there at least one more option?
     
  15. Pastor Larry

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    What????

    Really? My bet is that I understand the non-Cal position better than you do. I could actually argue for it better than most here.

    Yes. Here it is: Learn what we believe. That isn't my argument in the least. Not even close.
     
  16. johnp.

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    Hello Blammo. No, you already have one too many. :)


    john.
     
  17. Jarthur001

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    what is so amazing to me on this thread.....
    The Free-will group does not see that this letter is just what they say here on the BB.

    And look how mad they are!!

    I have been on the BB for over 2 years and have heard nearly every line from the free-will camp that is found in that letter. Maybe other words have been used, but the meaning is the same.

    It seems like some folks don't like their own doctrine.
     
  18. Blammo

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    You're the one defending the - God is either the author of sin or He is stupid argument.

    Oh, okay. You are not only the foremost expert on Calvinism, but you also know exactly what the Non-Cals believe. Too bad you can't prove the latter.

    That is the argument you are defending. :laugh:
     
  19. Blammo

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    Don't waste your time on me. Explain to Pastor Larry what the "Open Letter to God" means.
     
  20. Blammo

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    Yeah, I guess we don't hear each other. I don't understand Calvinism, and you don't have a clue what I believe. Not a clue.
     

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