Open Theism and secret sins

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Daniel David, Aug 23, 2002.

  1. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    This is an article by Dr. John Piper in regards to Open Theism. It is really posted to see responses. He is definitely one who understands the position. He has been in a spirited battle with the lost in his denomination over this issue.

    Open Theism and secret sins
     
  2. Baptist Believer

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    All of those who embrace Open Theism are lost? Nonsense.
     
  3. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    BB, read the article and respond if you want. That is the purpose of the thread.

    As far as your statement goes, I stand behind mine and am not surprised to know the CBF has entertained it.

    Some entertain angel unaware and others entertain doctrines of demons unaware.
     
  4. Baptist Believer

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    I’m at work facing several deadlines so I don’t have time to give a detailed response, but I did respond to the most obvious flaw, having the audacity to say that people who hold to Open Theism are lost.

    By the way, as far as I know you’ve never explained how you can justify the blanket condemnation of people involved in CBF as being lost. You seem to be an expert at separating wheat and tares…

    As far as CBF “entertaining” it, all they had was a breakout session at the annual meeting where the doctrine was discussed. The breakout sessions are development sessions (not business sessions) to discuss current trends in ministry, theology, devotion and worship. If “entertaining” Open Theism is the same thing as discussing it, then you are also lost (according to your logic).

    For the record, there was also a CBF breakout session on Reformed Theology, but you aren’t making wild claims that the CBF is entertaining or embracing Calvinism.

    You constant slams of CBF only make you a persecutor of your brothers and sisters in Christ – not something that God takes lightly.
     
  5. TheOliveBranch

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    2 Tim, Good article. I don't see where he states anything about all Open Theists being lost. I can see where the lost would not understand what he's saying or agree with the truth stated.
     
  6. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
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    If rape and the holocaust are sanctifying (two examples this Piper fellow uses), then I'm a jaguar.

    There are certainly times in the Bible when adversity is a catalyst for positive change; but this is not a universal truth. If Piper's premise is correct, then God is a sadistic tyrant brutally delighting in the torments of those whom God created.

    Joshua
     
  7. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Josh says:
    If rape and the holocaust are sanctifying (two examples this Piper fellow uses), then I'm a jaguar.

    Preach says:
    How loud can you roar? By the way, is Romans 8:28 an inspired, inerrant, believable text for liberals?

    Josh says:
    If Piper's premise is correct, then God is a sadistic tyrant brutally delighting in the torments of those whom God created.

    Preach says:
    Is it possible your understanding doesn't grasp this truth? Is this why you are a lib? Have you come across Isaiah 53 before? While some libs would use it as an example of Divine child abuse, I will glory in it and praise His name.

    Out like a shotgun shell fired at liberal theology.
     
  8. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
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    2Tim,

    Romans 8 - a wonderful testimony to life in the spirit and the transience of suffering. The fact that "all things come together for good for those who love the LORD" does not mean that God desires or controls the atrocities that can be committed against people. Have you ever counselled a rape victim? Did you tell him or her that God knew it was coming and allowed it to happen? Did you tell them that it was part of God's plan for sanctifying them?

    As for the fourth Servant Song in Isaiah I know it well and have preached it. It's a beautiful and stirring account of the evil and violence in the world; and a prophetic insight into the nature of our Saviour. He two was a victim of the brokeness of the world. That does not mean that said brokeness is God's will.

    Joshua
     
  9. just-want-peace

    just-want-peace
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    desires: I'm totally with you on this one Joshua!
    controls: 180 degrees from you on this one, UNLESS you are saying that God does not CAUSE such!

    If, on the other hand, you are saying that God cannot control, then your God is too small!
    Please note that satan had to get the OK from God before doing anything to Job!

    Also, if God is impotent in the situations you describe, then satan is more powerful than God. This is why I think (hope!!) I'm misreading your intent above.
     
  10. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Josh, are you not aware or not willing to believe that the verse is translated literally from the greek into:

    ...God causes all things to work together for good...

    It is your job as a preacher to understand the mind of God and communicate that. You can't just conjure up your own brew and think you are helping people.

    Frankly, you have fallen into that age-old argument about God either being powerful enough to stop sin and not doing it because he doesn't love or loving the person greatly but is not powerful enough to stop sin.

    I wonder if there is a third option?

    Is it better to tell someone that God was not powerful enough to stop Satan? Oh yeah, a created being in more powerful than God? Perhaps to those who are locked up in padded cells.
     
  11. A.J.Armitage

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    I wouldn't say that all open theists are lost, but any movement to make God look weaker is going to have more than the usual share of tares.
     
  12. A.J.Armitage

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    Was it God's will that the Lamb be slain from the foundation of the world?
     
  13. av1611jim

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    Either God is Omnipotent or He is not. There is no middle ground. No explainations can negate God's power, His will, nor His purposes. My Bible tells me that God creates evil and good. PERIOD. (Have you really read Isaiah or just skimmmed it?) Therefore, all suffering is according to His will. Now the liberal would instantly ask why? Why would a "loving God" bring or allow evil to cause suffering on the innocent and the just? But the Bible believer would simply accept such a truth as being beyond his own understanding and simply trust in faith that an All-wise and Loving and Just God would have His reasons which He chooses not to reveal just yet. Pretty simple if you think about it. And it is also very reassuring to know that we do not HAVE to have all the answers, simply trust Him. "Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him." "And lean not on your own understanding, but acknowledge Him in all your ways...".
    AV1611Jim
     
  14. post-it

    post-it
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    You haven't thought through what you believe, nor have you an understanding of what Omnipotent means. Already you are putting limits on God. Omnipotent means he doesn't have any limits and because he has no limits, if he choices to have limits, he can. Now from simple logic we have found that God can limit himself if he chooses.

    Why would God limit himself in a certain area? Well, if he wanted man to have free will, he would have to limit himself in ways that would allow us to have free will, our will would over-ride his will even when he wanted something different than what we wanted. If (Adam & Eve) decided to act on their free will and disobey God, then they must suffer the punishment (along with us). In order to have free will there must be a punishment / reward thus a result of our having a free will. In other words we must reap the outcome of our free will.

    If God interferes in that "result" of our free will, it in a sense, takes it away. And his underlying will takes over. However, his over-riding will is to let us remain on our own. I think God stays out of most things in our lives so we can continue in the original free will granted to us.

    It is also obvious that in scripture God has declined to know what some outcomes are. God knows all things including all outcomes and all history and future events. For him not to know, means he simply kept himself from knowing, that may have involved making himself forget what he once knew. With God, there is no limit.

    Our suffering is NOT God's will, it was our will that caused it. God respected man enough to honor his original agreement with man. We are reaping our own results of sin.

    [ August 30, 2002, 02:38 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]
     

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