Opinions,commentaries, wanted!

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by BrotherJoe, Jul 30, 2004.

  1. BrotherJoe

    BrotherJoe
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    Brothers and Sisters,

    Two verses that I am surprised that I rarely hear my arminians brothers quote against me to support their doctrine of atonement for every single human being and their doctrine that unregenerated man has the free will ability to accept the gospel are:

    "6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
    7 IF THOU DOES WELL, SHALL NOT THOU BE ACCEPTED? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him." (Genesis 4:6-7)

    AND ALSO

    "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often WOULD I HAVE gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, AND YE WOULD NOT!" (Luke 13:34)


    I am seeking to hear comments, interpretations, commentaries, debate, opinions on these 2 verses from calvinists, arminian, primitive baptist, and if there be any other perspectives. Thanks


    Brother Joe
     
  2. npetreley

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    The scripture from Genesis is one I haven't seen used in arguments, but the Arminians/Pelagians on this board bring up the above scripture from Luke all the time.
     
  3. UMP

    UMP
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    These verses could be used to explain "Time Salvation". What do you think ?
     
  4. Me2

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    the mystery of redemption covers the atonement of Gods entire creation.

    the scroll containing the redemption of Gods creation was opened by the lamb in revelations 5.

    the inheritance in which man is to receive was given to adam. adam sinned and lost the inheritance. thus the redemption of the inheritance to its rightful owner is necessary. although the inheritance given by God to man could never be permanantly lost for the inclusion of the jubilee is added into Gods plans of man rightfully keeping their possessions. it could be temporarily sacrificed. yet not permenantly lost.

    the scroll is the original document of Gods purchased possession. which is his entire creation. as Christ is our kinsmen redeemer coming to reclaim, or reconcile what is officially his possession.

    th OT has examples concerning redeeming properties, even peoples as it is covered in leviticus (Lev 25:23-24)(Lev 27:24)(ruth 2:20)(Jer 32:8) to their rightful original owners.

    Transfer these truths concerning Gods laws in OT symbols to man. we are as his earthen vessels.
    as all things are the lords. in the age of the ages. the end time. the jubilee of the Lord is when he opens this scroll proclaiming his ownership which he comes to reclaim.(rev 5:1-14)

    Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

    as for the free will ability of man concerning accepting the gospel.
    It is God who desires man to will and to do. I do not give man this freedom above what God has deemed. as my God is a jealous God. He doesnt give his creation a will opposed to or above his own.

    Me2
     
  5. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Brother Joe,

    Hope this helps . . .

    'The main reason why Cain's offering was not received by God was because he was alienated from Almighty God even before he decided to offer up his unique offering, the fruit of the ground.

    In I John 3:12 reminds us that he was in the family of the 'wicked one', namely the Devil. Cain's 'works' (life style) were evil and there is no way that he could have pleased the Lord. Cain was under the ruler of this world, namely, {Gr. tou ponarou} meaning the malicious one, the Devil. Cain was under the dominating power of the evil one and had never yielded to the Lord God Jehovah. Cain's heinous and devilish nature, Original Sin, had kept him on his obstreperous course of alienation from the Lord.

    Jude, in his general epistle, demonstrates that the people in his life span (meaning Jude) were running after the error of Balaam and were twice dead, spiritually speaking. And then Jude, being aware of the Old Covenant people, said his contemporaries had 'gone the way of Cain.' (vs. 11)

    When we read of Cain's being rejected by God, we then understand why he was forced to become a fugitive and a vagabond. Then God portrays His disdain for this fallen creature through Adam by saying, 'And Cain went out from the Presence of the Lord.' [Genesis 4:16]

    Cain's offering might be more clearly understood as his way to appease the Almighty; and when he and his offering were rejected, he became angry against God and his younger brother, Abel.

    Abel is the first listed in Hebrews chapter eleven on the roster of heroes of faith because he had {Gr. pistei} faith. So it is not strange that Cain's name is not listed with the ancients. Abel offered his offering to God by his faith, while Cain remained in his sinful condition.

    Some have carelessly thought that Cain's offering was rejected because it was 'fruit' rather than a lamb. The sacrifice of the lamb was not even mentioned. But the Bible is quick to say that Abel had faith in the Lord, while Cain remained in a faithless condition of heart.

    The Lord may have received Cain's offering if he would have brought it in faith. He rather remained outside of the grace of God.

    As far as Luke 13:34-35, I am not even going to give a commenatary on this passage. The Lord God reached out to His chosen people but they rejected Him. 'You would not!' Jesus gave them a choice and they used their unfettered will, or as theologians say, the free will.

    Berrian, Th.D.
     
  6. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Bro. Joe
    Who's desire are we talking about here? Is it the desire of Able, Cain or is it the desire of Satan? who is the "Him" that Cain will rule over.

    As far as Luke 13:34 this verse disproves the predestination of man.
    May God Bless you;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  7. npetreley

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    IMO (and this is simply my interpretation), the significance of Abel vs. Cain's sacrifice is that Abel sacrificed not only of his flock, but the firstborn of the flock. It was a sacrifice of faith. Abel could have withheld the firstborn as a guarantee that he'd be able to have future breeding stock. But to sacrifice the firstborn is to make a statement of faith that God will continue to provide a fruitful flock for him.

    To sacrifice fruit is not really a sacrifice of faith. (I suppose "firstfruits" could be considered a sacrifice of faith, but even so, what's the likelihood that you're really "risking" the inability to produce more fruit trees?).

    3 And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the LORD. 4 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the LORD respected Abel and his offering, 5 but He did not respect Cain and his offering.
     
  8. pinoybaptist

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    In addition, Abel's sacrifice had blood (And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission...Hebrews 9:22)
     
  9. npetreley

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    That's true - but if God had let them know that a blood sacrifice was necessary, it isn't revealed in Genesis. That makes me think that the blood sacrifice wasn't the real issue. Because if God had let them know a blood sacrifice was required, why wouldn't the Bible point out that Cain had known what was required of him, and that his offering was rejected because he had disobeyed that particular requirement? I'm not saying this is impossible, I just have to wonder why the Bible doesn't bring out that point?

    On the other hand, if it was, at least in this case, a difference of a sacrifice of faith vs. one that required no faith, all the information that's necessary is right there.
     
  10. Ray Berrian

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    'In addition, Abel's sacrifice had blood (And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission...Hebrews 9:22)' You're running the football the wrong direction.

    Ray: My friend, the Law of God was not even given to Moses yet and neither had Abraham started his sacrificial work in obedience to the Lord.

    I agree with Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer that this era of time was 'the Dispensation of Conscience which extended from Adam's fall to the flood, in which age conscience was, apparently, the dominating feature of human life on the earth and the basis of man's relationship with God.'
    Volume I, page 40.

    My previous post explains why Abel was saved and Cain was sent to Hell. Abel had faith in the Lord; [Hebrews 11:4] Cain did not have a trust in the Lord God.

    'By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and by it he being dead yet speaketh.'

    Notice in Genesis 4:6 that the Lord spoke directly to Cain and Cain offered his words back to Him.
     
  11. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Dr. Kyle M. Yates, Sr., Th.D., Ph.D., Professor of O.T. Baylor University, Waco, Texas said in "The Wycliffe Bible Commentary" p. 9-10:

    'The heat that blazed within him caused his countenance to 'fall.' It brought on brooding and an unlovely, morose spirit. Gently and patiently God dealt with Cain, seeking to save the rebellious sinner. He assured him that if he would sincerely repent, he might again lift up his face in happiness and reconciliation. {Nasa}, 'lift up', lends itself to the idea of forgivenesss. The merciful Jehovah thus held out to Cain the hope of forgiveness and victory as he faced his momentous decision.

    7b. Sin (hatt'at)--- coucheth (rabas) Close upon that heartening promise, Jehovah uttered a stiff warning, urging the sinner to control his temper and beware lest a couching beast (sin) spring upon him and devour him. The danger was real. The deadly beast was even at that moment ready to overpower him. God's word demanded instant action and strong effort to repulse the would-be conqueror. Cain must not let these boiling thoughts and impulses drive him to ruinous behavior. God made His strong appeal to Cain's will. The will had to be thrown into the struggle to make victory over sin (hatt' at) complete. It was up to Cain to conquer sin in himself, to control rather than be controlled. The moment of destiny was upon him. It was not too late to choose the way of God.' (end quote)

    We, of course, are reviewing Genesis 4:4-16.
     

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