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Opposing the 7th day Sabbath of the Lord Thy God

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Mar 27, 2008.

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  1. Limited origin: Evolution (or some other story) get's around a Genesis application for man

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Creation account is literal - Sabbath sanctified in Genesis for mankind

    4 vote(s)
    23.5%
  3. Limited Scope: Sabbath is for the Jews - it is the day of "Moses" given to the Jews

    4 vote(s)
    23.5%
  4. The Sabbath is the "Day of the Lord thy God" given to mankind

    6 vote(s)
    35.3%
  5. Limited Law of God: Ten commandments eliminated or downsized

    2 vote(s)
    11.8%
  6. We "establish the Law" by Faith. Law written on the heart not downsized or dead

    4 vote(s)
    23.5%
  7. Other - not listed here for getting around the Sabbath problem

    10 vote(s)
    58.8%
  8. Isaiah 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath all mankind will worship" OT and NT intent by God

    4 vote(s)
    23.5%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    This is your post - however the section in bold type is actually my words.

    Are you saying that you responded to that some place in the text below?


    Your comments seem to have nothing at all to say about "A single reference in all of scripture to "week-day-one IS the Lord's Day".

    Certainly nothing like that is given in Acts 24 nor in 1Cor 15.

    No reference to "week day one" OR "Lord's day" in those texts.

    AND no reference to "Weekly observance" of anything in those texts.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

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    If I recall scripture, Christians were there to persuade Jews to become Christians. They told the story of Jesus which was not part of the Jewish worship. I think this is speculation on your part.

    Ac 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
    2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
    3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
    4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
     
    #102 LeBuick, Apr 2, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 2, 2008
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Agree that Christians like Paul were teachers and could certainly lead out.

    But the question is "why are Jews inviting Paul to speak"? And the answer is as we find in Acts 22 and 23 Paul's continued affirmation "I AM a Pharisee the son of Pharisees". They were not simply going out to "another religion" like pagan and asking them to teach... rather they were going to well respected teachers -- in the case of Paul someone who was instructed by one of the best Pharisees known to Jews at that time.

    In Acts 22 the whole point of Paul "going to the temple" and taking the OT vow was to PROVE to ALL the CHRISTIAN Jews that Paul was STILL "in the faith" of their Fathers.

    When Christians were asked to "speak again the following Sabbath" -- it is not a case of "Jews walking on the wild side" rather they viewed it as Same religion -

    This is also why the non-Christian Jews FOLLOWED Paul and Barnabas around from city to city and harassed them. They realized that this sect of Judaism was easily "invited into the Synagogue" these men were themselves JEWS and not just any Jews - Paul was a well know leader of Jews.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    James reference is in Acts 15 and Paul in 13, both referring to the OT Sabbtah. The is my response. Sorry you didn't find it detailed enough.
     
  5. trustitl

    trustitl New Member

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    "the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul" and then they went and worshipped together?
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    THanks. It looked to me like the reference was to Acts 24 and 1Cor 15.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #106 BobRyan, Apr 3, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 3, 2008
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    You may find Acts 13 instructive.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Bob, I went back over all my posts to figure out what's happening with these references. I think there's a mix up somewhere.
     
  9. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    GE, I really don't know how to respond to your argument from the Christ, the Christian of all Christians.

    This premise ignores so much of what Scripture says.


    We have two clear references to Sunday worship (Acts 20:7; 1 Cor 16:1, 2).
     
  10. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

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    The key to Acts 13 regarding this subject is here. They were gathered on the Sabbath and were with the Jews in order to first give them a chance of salvation. Paul was recognized as a Jew (not Christian) and was allowed to speak. But as he began to convert Jews and especially Gentiles he was chased away.

    You are making it sound like Jews and Christians co-existed and worshipped as one group and that just isn't so. Paul preached on the Sabbath because the Jews met on the Sabbath. The Gentiles came back the next Sabbath because they knew that's what the Jews did. I don't see this as confirmation.

    Ac 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
    47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

    Ac 13:50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.
    51 But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium.
    52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

    I don't see why you keep referring to Acts 13 as it doesn't support Sabbath worship. It only shows the Jews worshipped on the Sabbath.
     
  11. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    This is clear from the Scripture. Why can't we all accept this, I don't know?

    [QUOTEYou are making it sound like Jews and Christians co-existed and worshipped as one group and that just isn't so. Paul preached on the Sabbath because the Jews met on the Sabbath. The Gentiles came back the next Sabbath because they knew that's what the Jews did. I don't see this as confirmation.[/QUOTE]

    Good point, Lebuick. We need not make the text say more than what is actually there.

    "It doesn't support Sabbath worship."
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Back to basics --

    Recall that as TCGreek already stated the ONLY reason for someone with TCGreek's perspective to BE there on a Sabbath is to convince those INTERESTED and ACCEPTING listeners to "join us TOMORROW at our Sunday worship service in memory of the Messiah's resurrection" etc.

    The VERY thing that is NOT happening in Acts 13 EVEN with Gentiles -- let alone Jews!! And this is something ALL agree with in Acts 13.

    So just staying with the obvious that ALL agree to we still have -

     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Because a carefull review of the "inconvenient facts" is very helpful.

    Once again - as ALL agree

    1. The persecuting Jews do not focus on Romans, pagans etc but only on that "sect of Judaism" that they call "Christianity"

    2. The open minded Jews in Acts 13 ENVITE them to SPEAK IN Synagogue worshipping the SAME God, using the SAME Scripture speaking of the SAME Messiah with Paul who continually says in Acts "I AM a Pharisee".

    3. The "Sabbath after Sabbath" service scenario that we see in Acts 13 is devastatingly FOR Gentiles as well as the FEW Jews that CONTINUED to be open to Paul's teaching after that first SABBATH.

    4. This should have been "SUNDAY after SABBATH" for those within the group that were accepting. Especially when we see that there is "sooo much interest" that on the NEXT Sabbath "almost the whole city turns out".

    The case could not be worse for "week-day-one" focus.

    The case could not be worse for "week-day-one get's introduced to this aCCEPTING (Sabbath-keeping group) as the Lord's Day" rather the text just keeps on referring to SABBATH services!

    1Cor 7:19 "but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    My response in post 31 seems to be the heart of the point you are trying to ignore here.

    And perhaps the highlighted in blue point is so successfully ignored rather than answered that now you are at the point of asking where the point is for Sabbath in that exchange above with regard to Acts 13.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1. 1Cor 16 is a case where NO gathering AND NO worship is mentioned at all as your "clear case of Sunday worship". I have to think this is a little bit "instructive" to know that in your "clear cases for Sunday Worship" you are down to the point of needing to reference the phrase " save money by himself" (individually-or alone) as meaning "public gathering every WEEK-day-one in worship in memorial of Christ's resurrection as is our Custom - calling it The Lord's Day". A more strained interpretation can hardly be imagined for that little phrase.

    2. Acts 20 has the following problem as a "clear case of Lord's Day worship service in memorial of our Lord's Resurrection as is our custom each week".

    A. we see TWO events - the farewell sermon extending long into the night (is that Sunday night -- week day TWO) or is that Saturday night (week day ONE) with a long voyage planned for Sunday service instead of --- Sunday service? No reference for week-day-one rest, or being set-aside.

    B. There is NO mention at all of this being a meeting to celebrate the Lord's Resurrection. In fact from the term "Break bread" we have THE services meant to "Show the Lord's death until He comes" according to Paul. No "mention of Resurrection" or memorial of resurrection.

    C. There is No mention in Acts 20 that "On that week-day-one we were meeting as is our custom since we do this every week-day-one or every Lord's day" in fact we have NO reference at all in the NT to "sunday after Sunday worship services". No "Pattern".

    D. There is NO mention at all in Acts 20 (which is in fact the ONLY reference to a Week-day One worship service in all of the NT) that "week-day-one IS the Lord's Day" or is sanctified or is holy or is a weekly day of meeting. No "Title"

    These again - are facts that all can see and agree to --

    What we do not agree with -- is what do do about the facts other than to ignore them or not.

    But another thing we all do agree with -- is that even with all these problems trying to straing "the Lord's Day" or "weekly observance" or "memorial of our Lord's Resurrection" out of these texts - they nevertheless ARE all that we have left as "THE BEST" and the "CLEAREST examples" in all of scripture in favor of the POV ""As is our custom we have a public gathering every WEEK-day-one in worship in memorial of Christ's resurrection - calling it The Lord's Day"

    A belief held today - without one mentoin of those key details "in the text".

    So what we are left with is grasping for ANY reference at all to "week day one" even if it is just in regard to "laying aside by himself in store" some funds at the start of each week.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #115 BobRyan, Apr 4, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2008
  16. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Bob, how could they be invited to Sunday worship when Paul and others were going around founding NEW CHURCHES?

    They had to start somewhere, and they started with synagogue worshipers.
     
  17. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Acts 20:7 and 1 Cor 16:2 are much clearer than your Acts references for Sabbath keeping among Christians.

    You are willing to ignore the clear difference between Jews and Christians.

    Still have have provided no clear reference that Christians met on the Sabbath for worship.

    Besides, your references to Paul and others frequenting the Sabbath gathering fail to take into account the WHY of Paul's attendance.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    You are not giving your post 29 statement enough credit where credit is due.

    Your point there would mean that EVEN in the "extreme" case where there are no Christians at all in the entire area of Corinth - Paul would STILL be urging a fledging start-up group to join him "at a home" or in a field or just-outside of town -- or just about anywhere -- as long as they were accepting of the Gospel message preached that day and as long as they wanted to hear more about the Messiah of scripture that they had read so much about it... the big deal that FIRST Sabbath would be "Jesus is that long awaited Messiah... and Tomorrow is the weekly memorial of his resurrection and we who follow the Messah will gather tomorrow worship the Lord and explore more of scripture on this subject".

    You seem to have given up on that and I say - "nay not so fast" -- we must admit to the logic and significance in your argument for Post #29 as central to those who do hold to your view of week-day-one.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #118 BobRyan, Apr 4, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2008
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Hmm .

    Alll Agree that in Acts 13 we have Christians, Jews AND Gentiles gathering "Sabbath after Sabbath" FOR WORSHIP and Bible study.

    All Agree that in 1Cor 16 NO "gathering for Worship" is mentioned at all - at best it must be 'inserted' by those who favor that idea and then an agrument made as to why that is not doing damage to the text.

    In Acts 20 NO MENTION AT ALL is made of bible study or a weekly GROUP meeting OR of Worship and praise.

    But as you say -- when this is all you have for making the case for week-day-one you really need to view that contrast as "best".

    Because the truth is -- that is as good as it is going to get for week-day-one facts in scripture.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Bob, I believe we've arrived at that impasse.
     
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