Oral Tradition

Carson,
Welcome back. I hope to see you posting on this board often in the days ahead.

DHK,
I know you really want to prove that we Catholics are guilty of giving man the worship (adoration, latria, recognition that He is God alone) which is due to only Almighty God.

But you're just beating the air. Kissing someone's feet does not constitute giving that person the adoration due to God alone.

And we Catholics do not give to anyone or anything other than God Himself, that adoration or worship which is due to Him alone.

Pauline

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pauline:

But you're just beating the air. Kissing someone's feet does not constitute giving that person the adoration due to God alone.
And we Catholics do not give to anyone or anything other than God Himself, that adoration or worship which is due to Him alone.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now you're in denial Pauline. In this respect Catholicism is no different than Hinduism. Both fall down before a man/idol and kiss it or adore it. They worship it, venerate it. If the Hindu were ignorant of the Catholic faith that is exactly what he would assume--kissing another's feet is a form of worship. When Mary came to Jesus and washed his feet with her tears and dried them with her hair, it was an act of worship. Kissing the pope's feet is no different. The Catholic church worship's idols. It has been an idolatrous church from it's conception in the fourth century.
DHK

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:


The Catholic church worship's idols.
DHK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

False witness, DHK.

At least you are consistent, if nothing else.

 

DHK, you say
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>When Mary came to Jesus and washed his feet with her tears and dried them with her hair, it was an act of worship. Kissing the pope's feet is no different. The Catholic church worship's idols. It has been an idolatrous church from it's conception in the fourth century.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
By your faulty logic when Jesus washed the feet of the Apostles He was worshiping them. This is not true. Why do you think Jesus did this and said for them to do this for each other? He says, He gave them an example to follow.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
During supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray Him, Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come forth from God and was going back to God, *got up from supper, and *laid aside His garments; and taking a towel, He girded Himself. Then He *poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded.

So He *came to Simon Peter. He *said to Him, "Lord, do You wash my feet?" Jesus answered and said to him, "What I do you do not realize now, but you will understand hereafter." Peter *said to Him, "Never shall You wash my feet!" Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me." Simon Peter *said to Him, "Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head."

Jesus *said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, "Not all of you are clean." So when He had washed their feet, and taken His garments and reclined at the table again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you?

"You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am. "If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. "For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.
"If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them. John 13:2-17
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

God Bless

[ January 14, 2002: Message edited by: Disciple ]

 

""You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am. "If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. "For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you."
---You cannot discern between Jesus teaching his disciples humility and an act of worship by one the disciples of Jesus? There is a vast difference here. Jesus was giving us an example in humble service in John 13. But in the accounts of John 12, Mat. 26, and Mark 14, Mary comes and worships at the feet of Jesus.

"Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment." (John 12:3)
---What she does causes some of the other carnal disciples to murmur. They were concerned about money; she about worship. They had their eyes on the world; she on her Saviour. Jesus did not rebuke her; he rebuked the others. The worshipful love expressed by the precious ointment and the contrite tears would be forever remembered. Jesus commended her saying that it was a good work that she had done. Only God accepts worship. And he gives the reason why. She had done it against the day of His burial.
Kings were embalmed in sweet and costly perfumes in the east. Mary recognized Jesus as her Lord and King. She does this in faith. This was a sweet-smelling sacrifice to God.
The Lord not only justifies and defends her action, but praises it. He declares that she should be rewarded for this act of worship with an honorable memorial in all ages to come. Whenever the gospel is preached, this would be spoken of as a memorial of her. Now that's worship!
Please discern between the two.
DHK

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:


Come now T2U, you can do better than that with the English language.
"This type of veneration." "THIS" refers right back to the word "king-worship."
Let's look at it again:
"This particular type of veneration (ceremonnial king worship)came to prevail at an early date."
veneration = worship (unless your a double-speaking Catholic, who likes put their own spin on words and redefine them according to their own liking)
This is worship, plain and simple. This is not simply a matter of giving honor to someone. It is a matter of worship. It is a tradition of the Catholic Church (kissing the pope's feet), and the "honor, adoration, veneration, worship, latria," that is given here are all one and the same.
DHK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


DHK, let's put your selected sentence back into context and see what "THIS" refers to.

Your original quote:

&gt;&gt;The veneration shown in the kissing of a person's hand or the hem of his garment is accentuated in the kissing of the feet. This is probably implied by the phrase of Isaias (xlix, 23): "Kings...shall lick up the dust of Thy feet." Under the influence, no doubt, of the ceremonial of king-worship, as manifested in the cultus of the Roman emperors, this particular mark of veneration came to prevail at an early date among the usages of the papal court (see Lattey, "Ancient King-Worship", Lond., 1909 C. T. S. pamhlet).&lt;&lt;

Now let's break it down a little:

&gt;&gt;The veneration shown in the kissing of a person's hand or the hem of his garment is accentuated in the kissing of the feet.

Under the influence, no doubt, of the ceremonial of king-worship, as manifested in the cultus of the Roman emperors, this particular mark of veneration came to prevail at an early date among the usages of the papal court.&lt;&lt;

Now a little more:

&gt;&gt;The veneration shown in the kissing...

...this particular mark of veneration...&lt;&lt;

"THIS" refers to the veneration shown in kissing.

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

DHK: My post was pointing out your faulty logic.... Mary washed Jesus feet and was worshipping Him, therefore that means anyone kissing the Popes feet is worshipping the Pope.

This is faulty logic because Jesus washed feet and was not worshipping the Apostles.

All acts of humility, love, or respect are not worship due to God alone.

God Bless

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: Disciple ]

 

DHK: Do you know that the Pope washes and kisses the feet of twelve men on Holy Thursday during easter?

I am sure you will say that is terrible for some illogical reason, but the Pope when he kisses their feet is not worshipping them. And when these men wash each others feet are not worshipping each other.

God Bless

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by trying2understand:

"THIS" refers to the veneration shown in kissing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes,t2u, the veneration that is associated with ceremonnial king-worship. That was the whole point of New Advent's explanation.
DHK

 

"Strange to say, this cruel prince received the pope with the greatest honour, prostrating himself before him and kissing his feet."
"Constantine also received a letter from John, the Patriarch of Constantinople, acknowledging that the "apostolical pre-eminence of the Pope is to the whole Church, what the head is to the body", and that "according to the canons he is the head of the Christian priesthood""
"Among other distinguished men who came to Rome in the days of Constantine was Benedict, Archbishop of Milan. He came not only to pray at the shrines of the Apostles, for he was a man of such remarkable holiness that he was distinguished for it in all Italy (Paul the Deacon, Hist., VI, xxix), but also to discuss with the pope..." http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04294b.htm

Prostrating oneself before someone and at the same time kissing his feet, is a great act of worship. Would Peter allow Cornelius to do that? No! Would the angel allow John to do that? No!

Constantine also considered himself the head of the Christian priesthood?! The only priest above me is Christ. Constantine may as well accept worship. He puts himself in the place of Christ basically declaring himself to be a god. The head of the "Christian priesthood" is Christ, not any man.
Heb.4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Benedict, Archbishop of Milan, prayed to shrines. This is an act of worship. It is idolatry, just like Hinduism.
DHK

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Now you're in denial Pauline. In this respect Catholicism is no different than Hinduism. Both
fall down before a man/idol and kiss it or adore it

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DHK, after reading what you actually belive, I thank God everyday even more ferverently than before, that he led me to the Catholic Church to rest in Jesus!

What are you doing when you kiss a womans hand in admiration and respect? When you kiss your wife's hand because you admire her and love her? Frankly, I think you are a bit twisted in your mind. I can only imagine that you attribute to others what YOU would be thinking in your mind if you expressed these same signs of affection, admiration, and respect. It is good that you never do any otf these things.

In our Baptist Church, we had many foot washing services. We Baptists obviously were also worshiping men and women. It was part of our tradtion as well. Welcome to the club. Many of us kissed our Bibles as well, and kissed pictures of our children. Pagans all.

 

Oh, and DHK, by the way...

No matter how many times you close your eyes and repeat your sick mantra, you cannot make me worship a statue, a saint, or anything other than God alone. This worship you attribute to us Catholics of things other than God exists only in your little mind.

So keep repeating...they worship statues, they worship statues, they worship statues, and you'll start to feel better. See, better already.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Charles33:

DHK, after reading what you actually belive, I thank God everyday even more ferverently than before, that he led me to the Catholic Church to rest in Jesus!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I posted what the Catholics believe from their website, not my beliefs, and compared it with Scripture. Too bad Catholics don't have the intestinal fortitude to deal with the facts and with Scripture. Your argument is not with me, it's with God.
DHK

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
I posted what the Catholics believe from their website, not my beliefs, and compared it with
Scripture. Too bad Catholics don't have the intestinal fortitude to deal with the facts and with
Scripture. Your argument is not with me, it's with God.
DHK
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No DHK, no.

Look at the quote I used of yours. My issue is with YOU, and your twisted thinking of equating, that kissing a hand or a foot is equal in the person's mind to adoration or worship of God the Father. And it is YOUR accusation, not any Catholics confession,

You sir, are the one practicing intentional double speak. You cannot answer the question obviously. What is a husband doing when he kisses his wifes hand out of love and respect for her? Is he worshiping her?

Answer this question expert. What is a Baptist doing when he or she kisses a picture of thier child or Bible? I want to know what they are doing? We did those things, and I was not the only one.

You intentionally misrepresent others teachings and do so continually, which will eventually place you in the position of having to answer to God for bearing false witness. So you sir, have the issue with
God. My argument if you call it that, is with you.

You never answer any of my questions. You change the subject and duck.
Would you please try to adress some this time?

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Charles33:

You sir, are the one practicing intentional double speak. You cannot answer the question obviously. What is a husband doing when he kisses his wifes hand out of love and respect for her? Is he worshiping her?
Answer this question expert. What is a Baptist doing when he or she kisses a picture of thier child or Bible? I want to know what they are doing? We did those things, and I was not the only one.
You intentionally misrepresent others teachings and do so continually, which will eventually place you in the position of having to answer to God for bearing false witness. So you sir, have the issue with
God. My argument if you call it that, is with you.
You never answer any of my questions. You change the subject and duck.
Would you please try to adress some this time?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I don't find the time to answer some of your questions now, please excuse me. I am not home, I am abroad and will be for some time. Internet use is not quite as readily available and reliable.
Your charges amuse me. A Catholic cannot discern between what goes on in the bedroom, commonly called sex, and worship?? Now, I find that amazing. You don't know the difference between a Hindu kissing his god or idol in prayerful adoration and worship and kissing his wife with to meet the physical and emotional needs that they both need in a loving sexual relationship? One is worship. The other has to do with family relationships. You, like the Hindu, practice a form of worship, when you come before your pope and kiss his feet, when you bow down before your idols and pray to them. You transgress the first two commandments of God. You twist Scripture to say that you do not. You slander me by saying that I bear false witness, yet my witness is true. I only report to you on what I see, or what I can document. The idolatry of the Catholic church is a well-known and well-attested FACT.
DHK

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:


Your charges amuse me. A Catholic cannot discern between what goes on in the bedroom, commonly called sex, and worship?? Now, I find that amazing. You don't know the difference between a Hindu kissing his god or idol in prayerful adoration and worship and kissing his wife with to meet the physical and emotional needs that they both need in a loving sexual relationship? One is worship. The other has to do with family relationships. You, like the Hindu, practice a form of worship, when you come before your pope and kiss his feet, when you bow down before your idols and pray to them. You transgress the first two commandments of God. You twist Scripture to say that you do not. You slander me by saying that I bear false witness, yet my witness is true. I only report to you on what I see, or what I can document. The idolatry of the Catholic church is a well-known and well-attested FACT.
DHK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DHK, your penchant for bearing false witness against Catholics is well known and documented on this forum.

Charles was asking you if you know the difference between worshiping and kissing your wife. I am glad you do. I had no doubt that you did know the difference.

How is it that you do not then know the difference between a Catholic respecting (or venerating) a person (living or dead) and worshipping that person. I again have no doubt that you do, but your apparent addiction to offering false witness about Catholics seems to get the better of you.

Before you take offense, understand, I only report to you what I see.

Like any other sin, you can overcome it if you call upon God for strength.

Ron

[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

More double-speak T2U, as the Catholics are so fond of using instead of the Word of God. Now you are using the language of a rank liberal or modernist who doesn't believe the Bible at all. Let me explain. In a recent film about Jesus, Mary Magdalene was portrayed as a prostitute who fell in love with Jesus. The implication is the same outright lie that some modernists have already accused Christ of, and that is that Christ married Mary Magdalene. Would her kisses then be considered worship? or would they be sexual attraction? The film did not portray them as worship. We live in an ungodly world. It is pitiful when a person cannot discern between the kiss of affection of a husband and wife and the worship of the Almighty Sovereign God. When you transfer that worship, and bow down before an idol, another person, in reverence, and worshipfully kiss that person--IT IS IDOLATRY!! You have transgressed the first two commandments. The Catholic Church has consistently done this throughout its history and consistently denied it through a game of semantics. Semantics doesn't work here. Call a spade a spade. Idolatry is idolatry. When you bow down before an image, pray before an image, you have committed one of the most heinous sins that God abhors--idolatry! When you bow down before a man, kiss his feet, you worship the man, you commit a terrible sin known to God as idolatry. READ YOUR BIBLE!
BTW, there is a big difference between what is commonly known as respect, and "veneration."
DHK

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:
It is pitiful when a person cannot discern between the kiss of affection of a husband and wife and the worship of the Almighty Sovereign God.

When you transfer that worship, and bow down before an idol, another person, in reverence, and worshipfully kiss that person--IT IS IDOLATRY!!

Semantics doesn't work here. Call a spade a spade. Idolatry is idolatry. When you bow down before an image, pray before an image, you have committed one of the most heinous sins that God abhors--idolatry! When you bow down before a man, kiss his feet, you worship the man, you commit a terrible sin known to God as idolatry. DHK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DHK,

As to your first point, who exactly is it that you think is unable to differentiate between the two? Again, Charles posed the question to you. He was not saying there is no difference. Why is that a difficult concept for you?

As to your next point, as you have constructed it, yes, that would be true. However, Catholics do not "transfer that worship" nor "worshipfully" kiss another person. I suspect that even you see the difference, in that you were circumspect enough to include those words.

As to your last contention: "kiss feet" = "worship man", are no other words appropriate to describe such an act than "worship"?

Humility?
Submission?
Thanksgiving?
Request for mercy?

If a man were to kiss the feet of another person (other than the Pope), after considering the circumstances, would it be inconceivable to you attributte the action to any of the above? Of course you could.

Why then this fascination with the Pope?

I suspect that it is necessary for you to revile the respect and love which Catholics feel for the Pope because he so strongly represents the Church. And having rejected the Church, what course do you have other than to convince yourself that the Church is not of God? I mean with salvation hanging in the balance and all.

BTW, are you ever going to fill us in on your theological training? You make a point of telling us you are a "preacher", but not how that came to be. What's the 411?

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by trying2understand:

As to your last contention: "kiss feet" = "worship man", are no other words appropriate to describe such an act than "worship"?
Humility?
Submission?
Thanksgiving?
Request for mercy?
If a man were to kiss the feet of another person (other than the Pope), after considering the circumstances, would it be inconceivable to you attributte the action to any of the above? Of course you could.
Why then this fascination with the Pope?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. Why did Peter not allow Cornelius to bow down in front of him? (he was a pope wasn't he?)

2. Why did the angel forbid John from bowing down before him?

DHK

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:


1. Why did Peter not allow Cornelius to bow down in front of him? (he was a pope wasn't he?)

2. Why did the angel forbid John from bowing down before him?

DHK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him."

Because Cornelius "worshipped" him?

"And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things."

Because John "worshipped" him?

But does it follow that falling down at someones feet is always worship? Notice it says fell down "and" worshipped or fell down "to" worship. It does not say "to fall down is worship".

Your arguement would carry weight if the verses simply said "fell down" without explicitly saying "worship". You see, it is the worship that is a problem.

How could the position of my body in relation to the position of your body, absent anything else, be sinful?

If we went to a party and there were not enough chairs and I said, "DHK, I really like you, and I want to show you how special you are to me. You sit on the chair and I'll just sit here on the floor next to you", would I be worshipping you?

It is the attitude, not the act.

Catholic don't worship the Pope. Sorry to be the one to break it to you.