Oral Tradition

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by trying2understand:

"And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him."
Because Cornelius "worshipped" him?

"And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things."
Because John "worshipped" him?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the Catholic coming before the Pope, bowed down and kissed his feet (in an act of adoration and worship). But in the semantic gymnastics of the Catholic mind who will adamantly deny that this is worship, even with the examples of Peter and John, it just can't be worship because the Catholic says so. Whatever the Catholic says must be true because the Catholic declared it to be true. Nevermind what the Bible says, we have a higher authority, the Catholic who says that he does not worship the pope or idols even though the Bible says he does. There is a matter of authority here. Which authority are you willing to believe? The Bible or the Catholic? The semantic gymnist in Catholic apologetics is adept at changing meanings of words, taking verses out of context, and general double-speak. Bowing down before someone or something, and kissing it is an act of adoration and worship. Peter and John knew that fact well.
DHK

 

There is a matter of authority here. Which authority are you willing to believe? The Bible or DHK? The semantic gymnist that is DHK is adept at changing meanings of words, taking verses out of context, and general double-speak.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:


And the Catholic coming before the Pope, bowed down and kissed his feet (in an act of adoration and worship). But in the semantic gymnastics of the Catholic mind who will adamantly deny that this is worship, even with the examples of Peter and John, it just can't be worship because the Catholic says so. Whatever the Catholic says must be true because the Catholic declared it to be true. Nevermind what the Bible says, we have a higher authority, the Catholic who says that he does not worship the pope or idols even though the Bible says he does. There is a matter of authority here. Which authority are you willing to believe? The Bible or the Catholic? The semantic gymnist in Catholic apologetics is adept at changing meanings of words, taking verses out of context, and general double-speak. Bowing down before someone or something, and kissing it is an act of adoration and worship. Peter and John knew that fact well.
DHK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"And the Catholic coming before the Pope, bowed down and kissed his feet (in an act of adoration and worship)."

Interesting that you feel it is necessary to paraphrase your own writing. Did you feel that your statement would not stand without it?

If bowing, kneeling, or falling down equals worship, why do you not do these things in your church?

You do not kneel before God so apparently you do not worship God.

You do not bow before God so apparently you do not worship God.

It is there for everyone to see, DHK!


Don't try to deny it with double speak.


[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by trying2understand:

If bowing, kneeling, or falling down equals worship, why do you not do these things in your church?
You do not kneel before God so apparently you do not worship God.
You do not bow before God so apparently you do not worship God.
It is there for everyone to see, DHK!
Don't try to deny it with double speak.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why do you judge before you have the facts? Have you ever been to my church? Do you know our practices? How much do you presume upon yourself!

Our mid-week service is a service especially devoted to prayer. After requests are taken, we BOW DOWN, GET ON OUR KNEES, AND WORSHIP GOD, in prayer and adoration. I thank God that my God is the Creator of the universe; He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings; He is the Word incarnate; that One who loved me enough to come from the glories of heaven and live as man and die for the sins of the world, rise a bodily resurrection, that we by believing on Him might have eternal life--I thank God that my God is not an idol, a statue, a pope, a man, a created something or other. I bow my knee to the Almighty; to none other than Jesus Christ my Lord, and brother, that ain't the pope!!!!!!

DHK

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:


Why do you judge before you have the facts? Have you ever been to my church? Do you know our practices? How much do you presume upon yourself!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DHK, relax. I was attempting to make the point that contrary to your assertion, kneeling and falling down do not necessarily perfectly equate to worship.

I would have thought that the little 's would have tipped you off that I was teasing you.

I am sorry for having offended you.

Do you think that perhaps you might be presuming just a little when you insist over and over that Cathoics worship the Pope. Especially in the face of continued insistance by Catholics on this board that we do not?

Having apologized myself, I now accept yours and forgive you also.

Ron

[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by trying2understand:

Do you think that perhaps you might be presuming just a little when you insist over and over that Cathoics worship the Pope. Especially in the face of continued insistance by Catholics on this board that we do not?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not presuming any thing when I insist that the Catholics do indeed worship the pope by their act of bowing down before him and kissing his feet. They worship idols, commit idolatry, when they pray before/to idols/statues of various kinds. These are accusations brought on by the Word of God which Catholics over and over again deny. They deny the plain teaching of the Word of God. In order to do that they must redefine words such as worship, veneration, adoration, etc. But that is not surprising seeing that they have redefined such basic theological terms as grace, salvation.

Exodus 20:3-5
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

Their worship of statues and the pope is in direct violation of Scripture, no matter what they say. Look at their practice not their words. If a thief tells an officer of the law that he has never stolen anything in his life, what should the policeman believe?
Look at the practice, not the claim.
DHK

 

DHK,
You're determined to prove that kneeling before someone is adoration. I have knelt before my children to tie their shoe laces, to straighten a sweater, etc. I have also kissed their feet. And you know good and well that I wasn't adoring them with the adoration that belongs to God alone.

The act of kneeling before a human or a statue does not constitute an act of adoration. And you can preach for the rest of your life on the subject and you will never be able to make it equal an act of adoration. Catholics do not adore (worship) the pope. That is the fact.

Adoration is an intention. If you don't take into account what the kneeling, kissing person's intention is -- you're just chasing goose feathers. Catholics have repeatedly told you what our intentions are. You just don't want to believe us. But your "wants" don't really matter. Unless you bring how you want things to be into line with how God wants them to be and how He sees things. God looks on the heart, on the intention. That is the standard He has set up. That is scriptural. And you should line your view of things up with His. If He takes intentions into account, then you should too.

Pauline

 

DHK, I pity you in your hard heartedness.

I will add you to my prayer list.

Ron

 

Ps,
You are on my prayer list.
Pauline

 

Esther 3:1-6
3:1 After these things did king Ahasuerus promote Haman the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, and advanced him, and set his seat above all the princes that were with him.
2 And all the king's servants, that were in the king's gate, bowed, and reverenced Haman: for the king had so commanded concerning him. But Mordecai bowed not, nor did him reverence.
3 Then the king's servants, which were in the king's gate, said unto Mordecai, Why transgressest thou the king's commandment?
4 Now it came to pass, when they spake daily unto him, and he hearkened not unto them, that they told Haman, to see whether Mordecai's matters would stand: for he had told them that he was a Jew.
5 And when Haman saw that Mordecai bowed not, nor did him reverence, then was Haman full of wrath.
6 And he thought scorn to lay hands on Mordecai alone; for they had showed him the people of Mordecai: wherefore Haman sought to destroy all the Jews that were throughout the whole kingdom of Ahasuerus, even the people of Mordecai.

5:9 Then went Haman forth that day joyful and with a glad heart: but when Haman saw Mordecai in the king's gate, that he stood not up, nor moved for him, he was full of indignation against Mordecai.

It becomes obvious why Mordecai would not bow down to Haman. Mordecai would not bow down or revere any one but God alone. He was a Jew; he had the law and obeyed it. No Jew would bow down to anyone but Jehovah. That is why Peter rebuked Cornelius, and that is why the angel rebuked Peter. Bow down to no one but God alone. Why is it so hard to understand the Ten Commandments??
Pauline wants to be the professional acrobat of semantics, redefining words at each and every whim.
1. You kiss your husband. Would you take the pope to bed too? Discern between the two.
2. You kiss your children. Would you cuddle the pope in your lap too? Discern between the two.
Your examples don’t make any sense at all. Catholics bow down and pray before images. That is idolatry, a direct transgression of the first two commandments. Catholics, at least some of them, bow down and kiss the feet of the pope. That also is idolatry, a direct transgression of the first two commandments. Instead of keep on childishly saying “I don’t do it; I don’t do it; I don’t do it; I don’t do it!!!” Admit that you do. It is not what you say that counts. It is what the Bible says that counts. Your argument is with God.
DHK

 

DHK,

If a person, before going to bed at night, kneels at the side of his bed and prays, is he worshipping the bed? If he kneels with Bible in hand and kisses it after or while saying his prayers, is he worshipping the Bible?

If you pray at table, as our family does, are you saying prayers to the food or plates or, perhaps to the silverware?

Kneeling or bowing before anything or anyone does not in itself constitute worship of that thing or person.

I salute the flag, I don't worship it. I venerate (honor) the Saints, I don't worship them. I honor priests, bishops, and yes, the Pope. I DO NOT worship them.

Aloha and God Bless

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:

Pauline wants to be the professional acrobat of semantics, redefining words at each and every whim.
1. You kiss your husband. Would you take the pope to bed too? Discern between the two.
2. You kiss your children. Would you cuddle the pope in your lap too? Discern between the two.

Your examples don’t make any sense at all.

It is what the Bible says that counts. Your argument is with God.
DHK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DHK,

1 Corinthians 16:20
Greet one another with a holy kiss.

2 Corinthians 13:12
Greet one another with a holy kiss.

1 Thessalonians 5:26
Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss.

1 Peter 5:14
Greet one another with a kiss of love.

I think there is something in Scripture about judging not upon appearances too. Hey, you probably already know that.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by trying2understand:

1 Corinthians 16:20
Greet one another with a holy kiss.
2 Corinthians 13:12
Greet one another with a holy kiss.
1 Thessalonians 5:26
Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss.
1 Peter 5:14
Greet one another with a kiss of love.

I think there is something in Scripture about judging not upon appearances too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is not the appearance that counts it is the practice. I am posting from a part of the world where those verses, in many cases are applicable. I also witness the idolatry of others, Roman Catholics, Hindus, etc. God never changed the Ten Commandments. Again, to equate a common greeting with bowing down before an idol is ridiculous. Is that really what you think God was saying in Exodus 20:1-4? You are the one to be pitied for your lack of understanding of Scripture.
Likewise, is that what the Lord is talking about when one salutes the flag, or prays at the table to God before eating a meal?
Venerating (worshiping) saints is idolatry. Read Exodus 20. Please explain it, without explaining it away!
DHK

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:


It is not the appearance that counts it is the practice. I am posting from a part of the world where those verses, in many cases are applicable. I also witness the idolatry of others, Roman Catholics, Hindus, etc. God never changed the Ten Commandments. Again, to equate a common greeting with bowing down before an idol is ridiculous. Is that really what you think God was saying in Exodus 20:1-4? You are the one to be pitied for your lack of understanding of Scripture.
Likewise, is that what the Lord is talking about when one salutes the flag, or prays at the table to God before eating a meal?
Venerating (worshiping) saints is idolatry. Read Exodus 20. Please explain it, without explaining it away!
DHK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok DHK, you win. If it looks like worship to you, then it must be worship. What you continue to write looks like hate to me...
so it must be hate. Right?

Why do you hate Catholics? Aren't you a new creation?

Don't try to dance around it, DHK. Just answer the question. Why do you hate Catholics?

I'll just keep asking the question until you admit it.

p.s. Don't blame me, "I'm just reporting what I observe."

p.p.s. Since Jesus was the One who said we are to love one another, "your arguement is with God, not with me."

[ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

Dear T2U,

Nobody here hates Catholics!

Personally I love Catholics,
I love both you and Pauline in particular.
Personally, I believe you are both genuine Chrstians (confused but genuine).

There is a function of love which apparently you do understand:

Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

I can't speak for anyone else, but my quarrel is not so much with the rank and file catholic laity but with the hierarchy of the Church of Rome. However you have come here to a Baptist oriented board to exchange opinions (or whatever). This will by nature be a provocative endeavor.

But no one hates you!

T2U, as for you and Pauline, I want only God's best (granted: my perception of God's best) for you and have prayed for that end to our heavenly Father.

Since you can't look into my heart or anyone elses heart, I will tell you publicly that the motivation for my rebukes is not just love but Christian love.


HankD

[ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HankD:
Dear T2U,

Nobody here hates Catholics!


[ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: HankD ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, perhaps we should wait and let DHK speak for himself. However, whatever he says about it, I would expect everyone to allow me the same liberties that are granted to him. That being to tell another what their inward intentions are based on outward observations.

And I would also expect not to be accused of judging or presuming but rather merely "reporting what I observe".

It would only be fair, right?

 

&lt;&lt;Well, perhaps we should wait and let DHK speak for himself. However, whatever he says about it, I would expect everyone to allow me the same liberties that are granted to him. That being to tell another what their inward intentions are based on outward observations&gt;&gt;

I'm glad you have admitted to Soul Liberty T2U, you've come a long way on the BB.





HankD

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HankD:
&lt;&lt;Well, perhaps we should wait and let DHK speak for himself. However, whatever he says about it, I would expect everyone to allow me the same liberties that are granted to him. That being to tell another what their inward intentions are based on outward observations&gt;&gt;

I'm glad you have admitted to Soul Liberty T2U, you've come a long way on the BB.

HankD<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hank, are you saying that "soul liberty" is a first person telling a second person what that second person's innner intentions are, contrary to the disclaimers of the second person?

Soul liberty = judging others nonobservable inner intentions by outward observations?

 

&lt;&lt;Hank, are you saying that "soul liberty" is a first person telling a second person what that second person's innner intentions are, contrary to the disclaimers of the second person?&gt;&gt;

Yes, I suppose generally speaking it is because the Scriptures tell us:

Jeremiaiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

&lt;&lt;Soul liberty = judging others nonobservable inner intentions by outward observations? &gt;&gt;

You have added the word "judging" and in a sense you are correct because the same Jesus who said "judge not that ye be not judged" also said :

Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

So then when we see someone doing something which appears to be a work of the flesh (such as what appears to be idolatry) then we have the right to go to our brother and speak our mind to try to help him/her to be a better Christian.

HankD