Orchestrating a War

Discussion in 'History Forum' started by Dr. Bob, May 29, 2004.

  1. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    December 1860. The sovereign state of South Carolina leads a secession of states from the Northern Union and forms a Confederacy, greatly akin to the pre-Federalist constitutional "nation" that had fought against Great Britain.

    All materials, lands, forts, weapons, etc of the United States on sovereign soil of South Carolina were to be confiscated and put back under the control of the sovereign state.

    A small garrison holds an undefensible fort in Charleston harbor. Abraham Lincoln, the new President, does not want the Union to be dissolved on his watch and needs an excuse, a motive to invade his own country and force submission to Federalism! Amazing.

    So he must make it appear that the South is in open rebellion, armed conflict, and troops raised to attack it.

    Simple plan. Send Star of the West and other ships to reinforce and supply the garrison at Sumter. South Carolina will (1) fire on the ships/men and "start the war" or (2) fire on the fort and "start the war". Either way, Lincoln and his federales will look "innocent" and the first shots will be by the South.

    Justification for fratricide.

    Of course, since winners write the history, the books will speak of those evil Suthrans who started the war by firing on Sumter.

    If I were orchestrating a conflict today, I would do the same. George Bush in 1991 and W in 2003 have followed their Republican forbear to the letter.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Dr. Bob

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    Modern Orchestration of War

    (1) George Bush's ambassador to Iraq was asked by the government what the US would do if Iraq desired to regain its sovereign territory (Kuwait has historically been a part of Iraq). The implication was that the US would not interfere in a domestic issue.

    So Kuwait was invaded and Bush backtracked on policy and started a war to "liberate" Kuwait.

    (2) Desiring to finish his father's war, "W" used the sentiment against terrorism and backlash to 9.11 to prepare for another war against Iraq. Justification? Terrorist training camps and Weapons of Mass Destruction. Little or no evidence, of course, but justification to attack.

    And so we are in Iraq and this Memorial Day weekend are losing soldiers in a second Iraqi war orchestrated by our government. The parallels to Lincoln's justification for war are obvious.
     
  3. LadyEagle

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    Agreed.

    And according to today's news, we will have troops in Iraq until 2006. Wonder how many more mothers will grieve over a flag draped coffin?
     
  4. superdave

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    Unfortunately since Lincoln's War to force the United States of America to aquiesce to the tyranny of the Federalists was successful, we are what we are, and are in the difficult spot now that we should be as Washington put it, "avoiding foreign entanglements" but instead as a people need to support the brave efforts of our soldiers who have performed admirably in spite of a pretty poor set of circumstances, while questioning the logic of those who sent them off to war.
     
  5. rsr

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    Drivel.

    The South had no right to secede. Andy Jackson, that flaming Yankee, had enough sense to see that. And it is unreasonable to think that our present circumstances are related to the Civil War; blame McKinley and T. Rex for that.
     
  6. Daniel David

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    rsr, you just have to ignore the South proponents. They couldn't write history, so they want to rewrite it. Typical of liberals to revise history.

    Anyway, they lack the ability to think through their little scenerio. They have the president as being lower than the governor.

    In the Southern economy, how does the president lead a country if the feds aren't in charge? What authority does he really even have? He would have to get permission from every state before he could do anything. That makes him a lackey, not a president.

    Sorry south, you picked a fight you couldn't win. You sent girls to fight a man's war and were dealt with severely.

    Truth, justice, freedom - three words you won't find in an Alabama dictionary.
     
  7. Dr. Bob

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    DD, why not drift back into middle earth and rewrite history. Go ahead, attack Alabama. Grant the butcher did. If you don't care about truth, keep believing what you've been taught.

    If one keeps repeating a lie long enough (140 years fits that) and loud enough (DD fits that) some might actually believe it.
     
  8. LandonL

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    South sent girls to fight a man's war, eh? I don't think you heard any Unionists saying that about Robert E. Lee.

    That's the most ignorant thing I ever heard. Grant didn't belittle the South after their surrender. He called them brothers. There's too much sectionalism in this country, only now it's East/West vs. Central. History begins to repeat itself again....
     
  9. superdave

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    sounds good, except in the west/east vs. central war, I have no idea where michigan fits. Our Basketball team is in the east, our hockey team is in the west, our football team is in the central.

    I guess we will have to join ontario and start our own little country, remember the alamo?

    I am not sure where the liberalism tag can be placed on those who view federalism as much as cause for the war of northern agression as slavery, it is pretty clear when you look at the historical record.

    I would not support leaving the union, but it the principles were correct
     
  10. Daniel David

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    Bob, this nonsensical revisionism that the southern proponents only exists in the south. The rest of the nation has moved on.

    The people who keep whining about state rights and blah blah blah are those from states known for:

    rascism
    incest
    inbreeding
    inability to read
    etc

    The only reason this is an issue still is because of the fathers in the south raising their children on the same indoctrination techniques that the taliban used. Wait, is that another connection between the south and terrorists? Snicker snicker.
     
  11. Major B

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    Those characteristics are actually most common in the inner cities of the North.

    The South has a lot to be proud of today:

    1. For taking Electoral votes from the North

    2. For taking factories from the North

    3. For taking retirees from the North

    4. And now, for taking middle class blacks from the North, or have you not heard of the reverse exodus?
     
  12. LadyEagle

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    Oh, yes, having lived in BOTH the North and the South within the past year, I can vouch for the fact that ironic as it is, blacks are treated better and have a WHOLE LOT MORE OPPORTUNITIES for living the middle class life in the South rather than in the North. Now how about them apples....Strange but true.

    Reverse exodus, never heard it called that, but it fits.
     
  13. Dr. Bob

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    And talk about racist and bigotted slams - DD your denigration of the South is misguided. Can't blame you. You were educated that way and swallowed it without thinking.

    I am NOT a Suthran but I am a thinking historian. Not "revising" history; just proclaiming what was not previously allowed. Not politically correct like you. Sorry.

    Reconstruction is over. You can go home to Yankeeland and take your carpetbag with you. [​IMG]
     
  14. Daniel David

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    Bob, I have lived my entire life in the south, been exposed to the states rights issue (my momma is that way) and basically have every reason to be pro-south. Well, that little matter of truth and a strong desire for justice keeps me from clinging to the mindless diatribe the south spews.
     
  15. Dr. Bob

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    God bless your momma, boy! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

    (Don't think we are ever going to agree on anything else on this thread!!) [​IMG]
     
  16. Daniel David

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    Bob, in all honesty, this is usually why I avoid talking politics with people. From a theological perspective, you and I agree on alot of stuff. I hate that politics clouds that issue.
     
  17. delly

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    rsr you need to do some studying.
    You said "Andy Jackson" that flaming yankee, had enough sense to see that.

    Dahling, Andy Jackson wasn't even close to being a Yankee. He was born on the border of North and South Carolina in 1767 and became a lawyer in Tennessee where he built his famous home "The Hermitage" in Nashville, TN. He was the first man elected to the House of Representatives from Tennessee. He was elected President of the US and served from 1829-1837. After his term was up, he came back to Tennessee and died at The Hermitage in 1845. He is buried on the grounds of the mansion. His only years in the North were his presidential years.
     
  18. rsr

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    I'm well familiar with Jackson's career. The comment was supposed to be ironic, to point out that not all Southerners were fire eaters who believed in the right of secession.
     
  19. delly

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    Whew, couldn't believe anyone would think ole Andy was a yank. lol Even though he was from Tennessee, I have a very low opinion of him. My great-grandmother was Cherokee and her people hid during the evacuation of the Cherokee in South Carolina so they remained in the Eastern Band of the Cherokee. I am so proud of my First Nations heritage and so ashamed that Andy Jackson was from my home state.
     

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