Ordo Salutis 2 - The Regeneration :)

I have to disagree. Chronology should always follow a logical line of thought. For system of things that transpire to be logical but not chronological defies real logic.

You are bringing your presupposition to the text and do not allow the text to define itself. It does not state we believe by justification but that we are justified by faith. Faith is the vehicle to being justified.

Again here we find Mr Strong (along with the Reformed view - IMO) is incorrect on this issue not because I say so but because the scripture speaks expressly to the contrary. You are not dealing with the text brother. I am asking for a proper exegesis of the text I have given. I know what the Reformed view of regeneration is and that is why I wish to discuss scripture regarding not the 'what it does or is' but 'how it does this' prior to the excersizing of ones faith as the Reformed view believes. Point in fact, scripturally it can not be done. IF I am wrong then I am willing to see it and repent - seriously. However, what if I'm right? Are you seriously willing to search it out??

If so, can we continue in discussing the aspects of regeneration which the Reformed view holds transpire prior to faith logically and compare them to the scripture contextually? (I am not meaning to offend you brother because I do want to either know the truth as you understand it, or share the truth with you as I understand it)

It is this that I wish to discuss those verses which I believe contradict the notions afore mentioned contextually. As I stated many times, I agree that regeneration includes justification, sanctification, being both alive and in Christ, as well as being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. But the kicker is all those scriptures which state none of the above are imparted apart from the excersizing of faith - first!

I believe the scripture shows a logical order that is seen chronologically based upon the both the texts and cotext of the passages. Texts such as those I am speaking of here dealing not with what regeneration is (I agree here - except for the faith aspect) but how does it justify, sanctify, make one righteous, one alive and in Christ, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit apart from faith being excersized first, as says the scriptures?

 

You have posed no question yet.

Besides I have asked you the questions thus far and still no answer except that of Mr. Strong that is still not dealing neither with the question nor texts given.

I suggest a better attitude brother as I have respectfully and consistantly dealt with each and every post given but you have yet to give anything exegetical to the texts given.

Please explain how one is justified, sanctified, made righteous, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and both alive and in Christ prior to the excersizing OF faith, when scripture states it exactly the opposite of your theological view. It is 'by faith' they are imparted as says the Holy Writ.

 

No one has denied such, especially not me.

I 'press' only what scripture 'stresses' and that being that none of what transpires at regeneration happen before one excersizes faith.
One is not sanctified prior to the excersizing of faith as says the scriptures
"It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)". Please show exegetically how this statement by Paul is false?

Actaully you are. You insist on a logical falicy which contradicts a scriptural order of faith first then justification, sanctification, righteousness, alive and in Christ, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

They are 'almost' simultanious and even you admit that with your logical order view. Scripture states something is 'by faith' and you say well that is not the 'real' order but this is.. Why because the first contradicts your theological view and the second is necessary to maintain it. I only want to keep to the scriptures.

Does scripture state or does it not that all those things thus far spoken of regarding the aspects of regeneration are all 'by faith':

Please exegetically dispove how none of the above transpire without faith FIRST being excersized.

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No one has said such, and again especially not me. However the mere fact one has faith but has not excersized it in no way makes them in union with Christ. It is by the excersizing of ones faith that one comes into unity in Christ. If one has unexcersized faith then one has no faith. Your statement makes one saved before faith is excersized yet scripture states it is by faith we are saved.

Salvation is general term for all that transpires. But it is not "pigeonholed" as you call it but the facts of scripture, and that which I wish to debate. Regeneration is salvation but unlike the general term (salvation) regeneration is specific regarding what has happened to create the new man and the removal of the old man (which includes sin)

Your right but Regeneration is salvation not some theological construct of something before hand. No unsaved person can see or better perceive what the Kingdom of God is doing which is why no unsaved person can enter the kingdom of God as well, which Jesus also states. One must believe in order to see

Again, no you have not proven anything either textually nor exegetically regarding faith being apart of the regeneration but as I have shown it is in fact scripturally contradictory. However with all the rest I agree but regeneration is salvation and not something before it.

 

I will be back in a week or so because my wife is giving going into the hospital to give birth to our 5 child.

God bless.

 

Thanks for the congradulation guys

We have a beautiful baby girl (Naomi Quinn) and the mom and babe are doing great.

 

Then let us keep it short.. sound good.

You state in your Reformed beliefs a logical order of regeneration (justified, sanctified, being in Christ and filled with the Holy Spirit) before or prior to the excersizing of ones faith.

I said (and believe) that scripture defies this outright by declaring that justification, sanctification, being placed in Christ, and filled with the Holy Spirit are all brought about BY faith or better when one excersizes faith in Christ.

Does scripture state or does it not that all those things we have thus far spoken of (regarding the aspects of regeneration) are all 'by faith':

Thus I conclude not one of the above scripturally can 'ever' transpire or be imparted to us, without the excersizing of faith. Justification, Sanctification, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, being placed into Christ, and even the propitiation being applied are all (according to scripture) given/imparted to us through or by faith.

 

Thank you TCG. I appciate that.

 

I will state again, Regeneration and faith are almost simultanious but only in that at the momont one done the other is immediate. So there is an actaul first here and not just an assumed first. It is noted that even you admit this with your logical order view.

When scripture states something is 'by faith' and then you say well that is not how it really happened or that it is the 'real' order but this is.. are you not disputing the scriptures what it is explicitely stating?