Origin of Evil

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Phillip, Feb 15, 2005.

  1. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    I remember seeing the question somewhere here asking where evil came from and how Satan became evil. I think this might be the answer:

    Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
     
  2. Debby in Philly

    Debby in Philly
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    2,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    The question, of course, is why.
     
  3. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    My guess is to give humans a choice. Without a choice, man's love for God would be artificially created and he wants man to love him without being forced to.

    Obviously, the angels were given a choice also. But, I am not sure it was for the same reason.
     
  4. KeithS

    KeithS
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2004
    Messages:
    186
    Likes Received:
    0
    Haven't done a thorough study of the passage in question - however this would in essence make God the author of sin if "evil" is understood in the traditional sense. I believe most commentators are not willing to go that far and instead equate this "evil" with punishment of wrongdoers or disaster in general.

    We might call Satan "evil" in describing his nature and equate that with innate sinfulness. God did not create "evil" in this sense of the word according to this verse IMO.
     
  5. KeithS

    KeithS
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2004
    Messages:
    186
    Likes Received:
    0
    Also, notice the "evil" is juxtaposed with "peace" to give us a sense of the correct understanding of the word. We have light and dark - opposites. Then we have peace and evil. I assume also are opposites. Notice it is not righteousness and evil, or good and evil - it is peace and evil. The HSCB uses "success" and "disaster" to help us gain a sense of the passage. This does not speak to the original of "evil" in our world in terms of sin. Hope I did not jump the gun on the other thread. I assume it was discussing the origin of evil in terms of sin.
     
  6. IveyLeaguer

    IveyLeaguer
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2004
    Messages:
    666
    Likes Received:
    0
    God is not the author of evil, but is sovereign. Whatever happens, happens only with His permisssion, whether peace or calamity. He is the Almighty God, and there is none else.
     
  7. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm just throwing this on the table for discussion.

    So, there are things that God "just" allows? If this is so, and God is creator of everything, where did evil come from?

    Is God not in control of everything? Who would evil come from if it "either didn't come from God" or "God didn't create the entity that created it (thus creating the creator capable of making evil--indirect creation?"

    Also, yes I agree these are opposites, but isn't light and dark also shown as God IS light and darkness is evil?
     
  8. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,974
    Likes Received:
    129
    The literal translation of the Hebrew word is "evil" but the context demand a further clarification (compare Ps 65:7; Am 3:6).

    This passage compares opposites, as “light and darkness”. The opposite of peace would be war or disaster.

    The NAS translates Isaiah 45:7 more clearly;
    Of course as children of God we have His assurance that "all things are for good" even in the midst of disaster.

    Rob
     
  9. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    So, back to the point. Where did evil come from if God didn't create it, or something God created didn't create it?
     
  10. IveyLeaguer

    IveyLeaguer
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2004
    Messages:
    666
    Likes Received:
    0
    God wanted a creation (at least a large part of it) that would choose, or choose not, to serve Him and love Him. For His pleasure and for the pleasure of His Son. You can love somebody if you are capable of nothing else but what does it really mean? Like you said earlier, Phillip, it means you're only doing what you're programmed to do. Without the freedom to love or not to love, love has no real depth or meaning.

    Because of that, God was pleased to create the POTENTIAL for evil, knowing in advance what would happen and exactly WHO would be the author, originator, and father of evil. He was willing to go into long-term battle, which he could have easily avoided, for the eternal fruit of having creatures who were tested by the knowledge of good and evil, yet chose to love HIM.

    Hallelujah.
     
  11. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    God is not the author of evil, but is sovereign. Whatever happens, happens only with His permisssion, whether peace or calamity. He is the Almighty God, and there is none else. </font>[/QUOTE]Where do you find this, please, book, chapter and verse?
     
  12. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    God wanted a creation (at least a large part of it) that would choose, or choose not, to serve Him and love Him. For His pleasure and for the pleasure of His Son. You can love somebody if you are capable of nothing else but what does it really mean? Like you said earlier, Phillip, it means you're only doing what you're programmed to do. Without the freedom to love or not to love, love has no real depth or meaning.

    Because of that, God was pleased to create the POTENTIAL for evil, knowing in advance what would happen and exactly WHO would be the author, originator, and father of evil. He was willing to go into long-term battle, which he could have easily avoided, for the eternal fruit of having creatures who were tested by the knowledge of good and evil, yet chose to love HIM.

    Hallelujah.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Okay, I like this answer. This makes the most sense yet.
     
  13. IveyLeaguer

    IveyLeaguer
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2004
    Messages:
    666
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm pleased that you approve, Phillip. God Bless.
     
  14. KeithS

    KeithS
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2004
    Messages:
    186
    Likes Received:
    0
    Perhaps we need to redefine evil (sin). In Genesis God creates light. He then divides the light from the darkness. Notice that the passage never says God created darkness. Darkness was merely the absence of light.

    Perhaps evil (sin) is merely the absence of the obedience that God commands. As soon as God demanded obedience on the part of any of His creation, disobedience became a possibility. I do not believe that this means that God created the "potential" for sin, although the result is the same. The potential for sin came about because a holy God demands holiness from His creation which He pronounced "very good". Is this way off base or are IveyLeaguer and I really saying the same thing?
     
  15. superdave

    superdave
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,055
    Likes Received:
    0
    If evil was not decreed by God would he not cease to be God?

    He is not responsible in a ethical or legal sense for the evil that is, but on some level has decreed that it would be so, perhaps to contrast his lack of it?

    Many of God's positive attributes are revealed by things that are not consistent with his character. The Fall of man clearly was part of God's overall plan to reveal the characteristics of his Mercy and Grace, without sin, we would have no need of these attributes, nor would we recognize them.

    The balance seen in God's creation would seem to indicate that there is a sense in which he would desire to have his attributes juxtaposed against opposite qualities exhibited by interestingly enough, his creation.

    "Hard to see the dark side is" -Yoda
     
  16. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    Interesting thought which I think simply helps boost IveyLeaguer's theory.

    Another point that should be made that would further make your theory work would be that evil has always been considered "darkness". What IS darkness, well, the absense of "light" and nothing more.
     
  17. IveyLeaguer

    IveyLeaguer
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2004
    Messages:
    666
    Likes Received:
    0
    Very interesting thought, Dave.
    Not sure about that one. Without sin, God would still be transcendent and imminent to His creation, upholding it by the power of His might, and all His creatures would still be totally dependent upon His attributes. In fact, what would we have other than some small measure of His attributes?

    Which triggers another question. What will we have in eternity future, other than some small measure of the attributes of God? [​IMG] "For we shall be like Him ... for we shall see Him as He is".
     
  18. superdave

    superdave
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,055
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you look at my original quote, I was specifically referring to God's mercy and grace. I agree that many of God's attributes are clearly seen in nature, and in the image of God that is present in us, but if we merited God's favor by living without sin would we need his Grace? and would we be able to recognize it as an attribute?

    I do agree that many of God's attributes are evident and clearly we are totally dependent on them, I am specifically referring to the two attributes that are most clearly needed and demonstrated by the way God has dealt with man's sin.
     
  19. BrotherJoe

    BrotherJoe
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2004
    Messages:
    234
    Likes Received:
    0
    KeithS said:perhaps we need to redefine evil (sin)...Perhaps evil (sin) is merely the absence of the obedience that God commands


    Brother Joe: Keith, the Bible defines sin as. "sin is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4)
     
  20. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    God ordained that evil would happen, without being the one who actually did evil.
     

Share This Page

Loading...