Origin of the Waldenses

Most historians make a connection between the “Vaudois” or “Piedmont” non-Catholic Christians of northern Italy/France and the Waldenses. Here is a partial list of authors with the JA Wylie book on-line.

History of the Evangelical Churches of the Valleys of Piedmont, by Sir Samuel Morland, 1658

The Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches of Piedmont, and of the Albigenses, Dr. Peter Allix, 1690.

History and Theology of the Ancient Vallenses and Albigenses Dr. George S. Faber, 1838.

Excursion to the Mountains of Piemont William S. Gilly 1826.

The Waldenses: Sketches of the Evangelical Christians of the Mountains of Piedmont A. W. Mitchell, 1853.

History of the Vaudois Church Antoine Monastier, 1849.

General History of the Vaudois Churches by Jean Leger, 1669.

The History of the Waldenses J. A. Wylie (1808-1890), London: Cassell and Company, c1860.

This one is found online at http://www.reformedreader.org/history/wylie/toc.htm

HankD

[ July 28, 2004, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

You're welcome Dean,

Every issue has two sides.

HankD

 

dean198
You might want to look for some primary sources (contemporary medieval documents) instead of 19th century history books.
Or at least if your Occitane and Latin are a bit rusty find out how much primary source material exist on the Waldenses and only use books that take in consideration all of it.
I know most works written about the Albigensians (a group completely different from the Waldenses by the way) in the 19th century are completely outdated because several important religious texts written by the Albigensians were found in the 20th century.

I know Gabriel Audisio is something of an expert in this field. Amazon has a translation of one of his books on the subject that I have read.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521559847/qid=1091047095/sr=1-14/ref=sr_1_14/002-3392192-6667222?v=glance&s=books

On a personal note.
The fact that the modernday Waldenses believe their form of Christianity started with Peter Waldo and not earlier suggests that it is the most likely position.
So does the fact that many strong proponents of the Waldenses are very ancient school, have strong ideological reasons (say Landmarkism) for holding to that view.

 

You should be able to find websites about this group.

I've read that the Waldensians traced their apostolic succession back to a certain bishop who was in their area in the 300's--probably during a time before the papacy had really evolved. Maybe their group started through his missionary efforts. 'Waldo' may be named after the same region this group is named after. One web site had an old confession of theirs, which you could compare to the Protestants.

As far as I know, they were paedobaptists when the Protestants met them. If you find anything to the contrary, I'd be interested in hearing it.

 

The Waldensian origin(s) remains a debatable issue.

Personally, I reject the idea of successionism of any identifiable Christian "body".

They were not "Baptist (distinctives)" Christians.

I carefully chose the word connection to older generaions of non-Catholic Christians in relation to their origin because I don't see clear evidence that Peter Waldo evangelized the Piedmont area in his own generation.

IMO, the most negative evidence suggests that they were first severed from the Church of Rome because of the barrier of the Alpine mountains and possibly not because they were champions of the faith, although some still maintain (at least by inference) a direct apostolic connection.

Milton's On the late Massacre in Piedmont

Avenge, O Lord, thy slaughter'd saints, whose bones
Lie scatter'd on the Alpine mountains cold;
Even them who kept thy truth so pure of old,
When all our fathers worshipp'd stocks and stones,
Forgot not: in thy book record their groans
Who were thy sheep, and in their ancient fold
Slain by the bloody Piedmontese that roll'd
Mother with infant down the rocks. Their moans
The vales redoubled to the hills, and they
To Heav'n. Their martyr'd blood and ashes sow
O'er all the Italian fields, where still doth sway
The triple Tyrant; that from these may grow
A hundred fold, who having learn'd thy way
Early may fly the Babylonian woe.

HankD

 

" Is Audisio persuasive?"
Yes. He does not go into great detail on this issue, but his explanation for why the Waldenses 'extended' their history backwards sounds very plausible.

"Does he believe that the Albigensians were Manicheans?"
I don't recall. In case I was unclear Audisio's field is the Waldenses not the Albigensians.
Personally having read what survived of the Albigensians own writings I wouldn't call them Christians. There are certainly Manicheanlike qualities to the Albigensian religion.
What is certain is that the Waldenses and Albigenses weren't friendly towards another.

" don't find that a strong argument myself, just because they didn't hold to this view 150 years ago."
''
In the eyes of most it's a lot cooler to belong to a church that extends all the way back to the dawn of Christendom, than to belong to a church that started out in the middle ages as wannabee Franciscans that didn't make it as an official order inside the RCC and got kicked out. The official historians of a movement don't give up a most illustrious origin for something more humble without a very good reason.

 

"You should be able to find websites about this group."
''
Rule one when doing serious research. Don't blindly trust websites.

 

But mioque, every person born of God is member of that Church.



HankD

 

Hank
Sure.
But belonging to a human institution that goes back just as long is a nice egoboost. That's why Baptist Bridism and Landmarkism are so popular.

 

There is certainly no lock step successionism, as in extreme landmarkism. However, there are also no periods in church history without some dissident group that insisted upon a converted membership, believer's baptism, and adherence to the scriptures, as well as protesting the hierarchy, transubstantiation, etc. The Catholic polemicists would have us believe that these folks were all heretics against orthodoxy, but we often can't be sure of that, given that all we have is the testimony of their enemies.

 

Didn't some one say "trust but verify"?

HankD