Original Biblical Manuscripts

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by romanbear, Dec 20, 2002.

  1. romanbear

    romanbear
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2002
    Messages:
    530
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi everyone; [​IMG]
    There are so many people who know so much about the translation of scriptures here. That I just thought someone might be able to tell me how one can go about seeing these much talked about manuscripts. No one has offered that information but, some of you seems convinced that access can be had. If so how? If you don't know, then alot of you can't honestly say you know what you are talking about.When you claim that Erasmus didn't have all the manuscripts we have to day.I can only think of two that he didn't have. My point is that can anyone prove that these so called new translators actually have or had access to all the Biblical manuscripts there are?Or disprove they had access?
    May God bless. [​IMG]
    Romanbear [​IMG]
    Peace
     
  2. Bible Student

    Bible Student
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2002
    Messages:
    259
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good Questions Romanbear....What study I have done I have just found that there are copies of copies of the orginals. And the argument is over the Majority Text or what is called the Older Text, as if it is dated before someother text it somehow becmes the better text.

    Richard [​IMG]
     
  3. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    (1) How many greek texts did Erasmus have when he compiled his "edition"?

    (2) How many greek texts do we have access to today in comparison?

    Answer these and you will see the basis for the major controvery over subsequent translations.

    BTW, "older" means "older", nothing more or less. Same with "more". It means "more".

    Not "better" because there is more or because it is older or newer. Better doesn't relate to older or more.
     
  4. Forever settled in heaven

    Forever settled in heaven
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2000
    Messages:
    1,770
    Likes Received:
    0
    i'm told that for the NT, there are 5,000 MSS available to scholars today. there may be more out there, but these r not available to "new translators" either becos they're still not discovered or becos they're in pte collections.

    if Erasmus was short of 2 of these, he'd have had access to about 4,800 MSS. fr my readings so far, i haven't heard him in possession of more than 10 MSS or of him having seen--at one time or another--any more than 20.

    access to the 5,000 MSS can be gained by visiting their physical locations at major museums in Manchester, London, n Washington, or by looking up microfiche or printed facsimiles. try it! ;)
     
  5. BrianT

    BrianT
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2002
    Messages:
    3,516
    Likes Received:
    0
    Most manuscripts themselves are available for viewing in libraries (public/university/private) and museums across Europe and western Asia, and a few in the US. Also, Israel and Egypt have some collections. For example, at the British Museum you can see Alexandrinus and Sinaiticus, and several others. Vaticanus is, as it's name implies, at the Vatican.

    The manuscripts have been well catalogued and documented. Photographs and the actual text of each manuscript is available in books, on the internet, etc (search engines are your friend). One does not need to physically see each manuscript "in person" to know what they say, just as you don't have to see the "original" TR or own an "original" KJV to know what they say.

    I don't understand your point.

    Really? Then why does every Biblical historian say there are currently thousands of manuscripts, but Erasmus had less than 10?

    A little research will give you your answer. Pick up a Greek NT by the United Bible Societies and examine how they catalog manuscripts in the front, and document textual variations throughout the NT. Pick up some books on Biblical manuscripts by Christian experts, like Metzger, etc. I have a book called "The Text of the Earliest New Testament Greek Manuscripts" by Comfort and Barret which provides the complete text and often photos of dozens and dozens of papyri, almost all are 5th century and earlier. Use a search engine and find sites like http://clawww.lmu.edu/faculty/fjust/John/Papyri.html and http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/ww_tc.html within seconds.

    Trust me, access to manuscripts is not a problem. [​IMG]

    [ December 20, 2002, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: BrianT ]
     
  6. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    The extant manuscripts (apograph (copies) rather than autographa (originals)) reside in various museums and centers aroudn the world. There are some close by here in Ann Arbor Michigan at the University of Michigan. There was, for a time, a large collection in Grand Rapids Michigan but my understanding is that they have been moved to Florida.

    As for Erasmus, he had less than a dozen of over 5000. That is a miniscule, statistically negligent sample. It is a remarkable testimony to the providence of God in the preservation of Scripture that he was as close as he was. His five editions all of which made substantial changes to the text served to clarify and come closer to original manuscript. (His editing and textual criticism alone throw a gigantic monkey wrench into the principles on which the KJVOnly camp is founded.) The finding and correlation of thousands of manuscripts have only confirmed the veracity of God's word rather than confusing it, as some erroneously claim.

    Lastly, as for knowledge of "what you are talking about," it is unwise to assume that your own lack of knowledge disqualifies others from knowing what they are talking about. I do not mean to be unnecessarily hard or insenstive. I rather call us to a more well reasoned and gracious opinion about our own lack of knowledge. My point is rather to be instructive. Your "ignorance" (in the best sense of uninformed rather than stupid) is no one else's fault. This information is readily available in numerous places. Books on the Popular level include things such as James White's "The King James Version Debate." Central Baptist Theological Seminary has a book entitled "One Bible Only?" Both of these would be good starting points for exposing yourself to some well-reasoned and documented evidence to the other side of the debate. It would be very informative. I hope you will seek some of these things out.
     
  7. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,970
    Likes Received:
    128
    Thanks Pastor Larry! Us lerkers who are on the fringes of the debate like good book suggestions that can help us understand some of the contoversial topics that are often brought up on the board.

    Rob
     
  8. Bible Student

    Bible Student
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2002
    Messages:
    259
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dr Bob
    Thank you for your kind reply another statement I would like to submit for your comment. Could this statement be a true statement?

    “A manuscript which is dated as having been copied during the 10th century could have been the fifth in a line of copies originating with the original autograph, while a manuscript dated as having been copied during the 3rd century could have been the one hundredth in the line of copies. Since it is difficult to tell the genealogy, the family of any given manuscript, it is important to note that age is relative in the sense that you could have a corrupt 3rd century manuscript or a faithful 10th century manuscript.”

    Thanks Richard [​IMG]
     
  9. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    You are correct again, friend. Older does not mean that it is more accurate. Nor does newer.

    The error comes from making a BASIC ASSUMPTION that one particular manuscript (or family/copies of that one) is THE BEST.

    Then obviously, comparing all of the 5000 others to that one will leave theym all slightly different (and different is BAD).

    So what to do? I have a 4th C Greek text from the Western Orthodox that differs from a 10th C Greek text from the Eastern Orthodox. One may be accurate to the originals in a given passage, while in error in another.

    Hence the tremendous debate ove manuscripts! :cool:
     
  10. Pastork

    Pastork
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2002
    Messages:
    434
    Likes Received:
    0
    Brian, Dr. Bob, and Pastor Larry,

    I really appreciate the way you guys keep patiently laying out the same sensible arguments as often as needed. I pray you will continue to see fruit in your endeavors here.

    Your fellow-laborer in the Gospel,
    Pastork
     
  11. Bible Student

    Bible Student
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2002
    Messages:
    259
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dr. Bob I have a few more questions on this subject but will not have time to post until after Christmas.

    Richard [​IMG]
     

Share This Page

Loading...