Original Sin and Imputed Sin

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by ReformedBaptist, Aug 22, 2007.

  1. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
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    "By original sin, as the phrase has been most commonly used by divines, is meant the innate sinful deparvity of the human heart." - Jonathan Edwards.


    Hey all,

    I am starting this thread to begin a discussion/debate on the topic of original and imputed sin, which some on these boards have continually denied. It will be my aim to prove that the doctrine is not the invention of men but rather of the Lord and the revelation of Scripture. I will also, God willing, defend this doctrine against all arguments and throughts that have lifted themselves up against it.

    So what is original and imputed sin, and what is the biblical evidence for this?

    Original/imputed sin is the historical Christian doctrine that all mankind is born into the world with sinful natures due to the sin of Adam. The difference between original and imputed sin is this. Original sin is the result of Adam's sin, that we enter into the world with sin natures. Imputed sin is that Adam's sin is credited not only to Adam, but to all his posterity as well. Mankind is regarded as having sinned IN Adam. This includes both guilt and corruption.

    One the primary Scriptures that teach this is Romans 5:12-21. Looking at the first verse we read,

    "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned..."

    The argument is plain here. Sin entered into the world by one man, Adam. Death entered into the world by sin. This was God's judgment. Death has passed to all men, because all have sinned. I know this subject was hotly debated in the context of infant salvation, and rightly so, because infants die. The mere fact that they die give proof of their inherited guilt from Adam. The fact that the rest who love all sin and fall short of the glory of God gives clear evidence of the corruption inherited. We do not see it in infants, the corruption, but it manifests over time. (everyone is a sinner who grows up)

    We know every man is a sinner, and I don't think anyone questions it. Ecc 7:20 "For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not."

    Psalm 51:5 says, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Certainly king David is not saying that his mother had him out of wedlock, or something of that sort, that David was the product of adultery. But that David's parents, themselves being in a condition of sin, concieved him, as all people who are born into the world. Even before being born, while in the womb, he was being 'shapen' was in iniquity. And I think this could speak to infants who are unborn who die in the womb or are aborted.

    Eph 2:2 calls all who are not in Christ "sons of disobedience" and Eph 2:3 says that we are by NATURE children of wrath. God does not direct His wrath to those who are not guilty. Thereofre, we are by NATURE sinners. God did not make us this way. Ecc 7:29 "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions."

    This sinfulness Scripture speaks of from infancy.

    Psalm 22:15 " Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."

    Gen. "And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done."

    Upon the word youth used here Jonathan Edwards comments, "The word translated youth, signifies the whole of the former part of the age of man, which commences from the beginning of life. The word in its derivation, has reference to the birth or beginning of existence...so that the word here translated youth, comprehends not only what we in English most commonly call the time of youth, but also childhood and infancy."

    Psalm 58:3 "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

    Listen to the preacher describe the human race:

    "This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead." Ecc 9:3

    The staff at Desiring God ministries (John Piper) had an excellent statement regarding this. It's worth the entire quote:

    Concernign the nature of mankind we say they are totally depraved. Not that all mankind is as wicked as they can be. But the corruption of sin, their nature, has affected every part of their being.

    "The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. " Psalm 14:2-3

    "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jer 17:9

    Does this not show us that the text assumes original corruption? The human heart is sinful, therefore all humans are sinful.
     
    #1 ReformedBaptist, Aug 22, 2007
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  2. lbaker

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    Deep stuff - a couple of questions:

    So what does this mean for the Incarnation, assuming we are all born with sin already imputed to us?

    If Jesus is fully man as well as fully God, wouldn't He have been born with this imputed sin, making His sacrifice imperfect?

    Or, if He was given a different nature than the rest of us and not born with sin imputed to Him, He was never truly human. So were the Gnostics right after all?

    There may be some scriptures that address this but I couldn't think of any.

    Les
     
  3. ReformedBaptist

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    Jesus took on human form, sin excepted. He was not born IN Adam as we are. He concieved by the Holy Spirit, not Joseph. He truly was a second Adam.
     
    #3 ReformedBaptist, Aug 22, 2007
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  4. lbaker

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    So wouldn't that make Him "less" than human, and all the parts about how He was tempted just like us incorrect?

    Les
     
  5. ReformedBaptist

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    No brother, it would make him fully human. Sin is unnatural and not the orginal state of man. Was Adam not really human before he sinned? But I guess after 6,000 years of sin in the race, we have come to accept it as normal, or "human'
     
  6. ReformedBaptist

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    Maybe its my mistake in not understanding your thinking. The Word took on flesh. The flesh is not evil. i.e. a physical body.
     
  7. lbaker

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    Yes, Adam was really human, and apparently his humanity included the ability to sin, or the same sinful nature that we are born with, otherwise he wouldn't have bitten the fruit. But, he obviously wasn't born with sin imputed to him.

    What about Mary, wouldn't she have passed along the imputed sin along with the sinful nature?

    Les
     
  8. ReformedBaptist

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    Not in my understanding. Jesus was concieved by the Holy Spirit. Mary's body provided the flesh, not the nature. Adam was created with the ability to fall, but NOT a sinful nature. The Scripture declare that God made man upright, not sinful.

    Jesus was not born of the seed of man, but of God. Jesus was not from Mary but from God.

    And now that I have both your arms behind your back, why don't you just cry uncle and this will all be over with. lol I am just kiddin around of course.
     
    #8 ReformedBaptist, Aug 22, 2007
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  9. lbaker

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    Well, if what you say is true you should be able to prove it using only the book of Hezekiah!

    Hmmmm, I guess we differ on how we see the Incarnation. I see Jesus receiving all of Mary's humanity, flesh and nature, as well as God's nature and whatever else being God entails. Otherwise, He wouldn't have been really tempted as we are but would have just sort of skated through life.

    Looks like you and I are the only contenders here, bro. We probably need to work ME into the discussion somehow - lol.

    Les
     
  10. ReformedBaptist

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    No ME!!!

    How do you reconcile Jesus having a sin nature with the fact the Scirpture teaching He is sinless. Maybe I should ask if that is what your teaching. The only ones I have heard teach this idea is Christadelphians.
     
    #10 ReformedBaptist, Aug 22, 2007
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  11. ReformedBaptist

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    As a follow-up thought. Consider what it means to have a sin nature. matt 7:20-23 "And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."

    Remember that Eph 2:3 says we are children of wrath. Jesus was not a child of wrath. Nor did He have a nature within Him from which proceeded even and evil thought. Jesus was a perfect man, pure and holy in every respect. If He wasn't, then He was not an acceptable sacrifice. But we know He was because He rose from the dead.

    Jesus did not have to have a sinful nature to be tempted. Adam did not. And God did not create Adam evil. The question is then asked if Jesus could have sinned.

    If Jesus were merely a human, the answer would be yes. But we cannot separate His human nature from His divine nature. Jesus simply had to be human to be tempted, not have a sinful nature. And we know He was fully man and fully God. As God, Jesus could resist sin and temption with any danger of falling.

    Matt Slick, and apologist, did a very good job correcting this misudnerstanding in his refutation of Christadephianism. http://www.carm.org/christadelphian/Jesus_nature.htm

    Hope this helps,
    RB
     
  12. lbaker

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    For me, having a sin nature just means having an innate propensity to sin, which we could, theoretically, resist, although the only one who ever did so perfectly is Jesus. He was definitely sinless, although tempted just like us.

    Don't know what a Christadelphian is, but I don't think I are one.

    Les
     
  13. ReformedBaptist

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    Check out Matt Slick's work on it because it addresses this very subject. I think its very informative.
     
  14. lbaker

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    Hmmmmm, if there was never any danger of falling, was He really tempted like us?

    Les
     
  15. webdog

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    Yes. Adam (and Eve) wasn't created with a sin nature and they still fell for temptation to be like God.
     
  16. ReformedBaptist

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    Yes. Is God tempted by sin? No. Is man tempted by sin? Yes. Was Jesus God and Man? Yes. Does a person have to have a sin nature to be tempted. No. Does a creature have to be created able to fall, to fall into sin. Yes. Was Jesus a created being? No. He was God come in the flesh.

    Can God have a sinful nature? God forbid.
     
  17. TCGreek

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    I tremble at an explanation of the incarnation, for it is so metaphysical, beyond our fullest comprehension.
     
  18. lbaker

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    I think the whole thing hangs on just what the sinful nature is, and whether or not Adam had one.

    What's a scripture that proves A&E didn't have one?

    BTW, I read the stuff on the Christadelphians and I definitely am not one of them!

    Les
     
  19. webdog

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    The one where they died when they ate the fruit. God wouldn't deem His creation "good" with a sin nature created in.
     
  20. lbaker

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    Yes, that it is!

    Les
     

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