ORIGINAL SIN---Exactly what is it according to CALVINISM?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Wes Outwest, Jan 31, 2005.

  1. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    On another Topic Johnp, responded to a post with "If? Original sin is dumped."

    Precisely what is "Original Sin" from the Calvinist perspective?
     
  2. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Wes:
    Good point I don't think they know. I hope they prove me wrong.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  3. Wes Outwest

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    Seems to me that if we all have it, it would be readily recognizable.

    Generally speaking, the norm for humanity is two legs with a foot at one end of each, 0ne body two arms with a hand at one end of each, one neck, one head with two eyes, two ears, one nose with two nostrils, one mouth with teeth and a tongue, and some hair follicles generally all over the head. Now those are characteristics that we all have that are physically visible, we can see them with our eyes.

    Then we can start with the internal parts, we all have a brain that some seldom use, though most do; stomachs, hearts, lungs, intestines, liver, kidneys, bladder, reproductive organ, though not all exactly alike, and that generally sums up the inside.

    Then depending on what one's willingness to accept it or believe it, we all have a spirit that quickens all of the parts mentioned above.

    And, we all recognize that we have those parts. But some say we have "original sin" but not one of us can see it! However, in some it seems they have found theirs because they really do live up to the name "sinner". In others, you see no signs of original sin at all. So it seems that only some have it, what ever it is.

    So, I really would like a precise definition of what it is we are all supposed to have that we got hand-me-down from the world's first human parents, but I would like that precise definition from the Calvinist' perspective.

    Can any of you Calvinists provide such a definition?
     
  4. NateT

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    According to Book 2, Chapter 1 Section 8 of Calvin's Institutes,
    Perhaps that will be a good defintion?
     
  5. NateT

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    Also, I think that if we have original sin, by its nature it would not be readily apparent to us. If we have original sin that affects us in our totality, it would also affect our ability to reason which would keep us from seeing our original sin.
     
  6. Wes Outwest

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    I wonder if Calvin knew of and understood the Christ's atonement for SIN?

    Seems to me that if He did, he would have recognized that Sin having been Atoned ONCE, FOR ALL, has LOST its Power over man, and that to enjoy the reality thereof, all any man needs is faith in the one who did the atoning.
     
  7. johnp.

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    Why do babies die?

    johnp.
     
  8. NateT

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    I haven't been reading your comments in other threads, so I'm going to make an assumption. I'm going to assume that you don't believe that someone who has never accepted Christ is free from the power of sin.

    That being said, Calvin is not saying that original sin still has power over the believer. It is not as if this original sin is some kind of "super-sin" that cannot be atoned for. What he is saying is that since we have all come from Adam, we all are guilty that Adam didn't just teach us how to sin, but instead passed down his sinful nature.

    From what I've read of the Institutes, Calvin definitely knew that Christ paid the penalty for sin.


    I'm not exactly sure, but my thought is that babies die because of sin. NOT the sin of the parents (although that could be a possibility) but because sin reigns in this world and that sin affects everything. Why can't I live to be as old as Mathusela?
     
  9. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Nate;
    Wasn't there sin in the world when Methuselah lived?
    We all have to die because of sin being in the world. Adam and Eve were created in a sinless world and sin entered the world through them.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  10. johnp.

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    Hello NateT.

    Why do babies die?

    I'm not exactly sure, but my thought is that babies die because of sin. The wages of sin is death. If a child dies it must be due to that child being reckoned a sinner.
    God regards the baby as having done nothing good or bad, RO 9:10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
    It is our spiritual death that condemns us and it is the spiritual death that affects all conceived.
    When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. After the fall man was no longer made in God's likeness but in Adams. Gen 5:1-3. Dead in our sins...Ehp 2:1.
    NOT the sin of the parents (although that could be a possibility) but because sin reigns in this world and that sin affects everything. Sin does affect everything but our days are not numbered by any man's actions but it is God, Job 1:21 ..."Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised."
    It is God that takes away. If God takes away then He does so on the basis that the one He takes is a sinner because the wages of sin is death.
    Why can't I live to be as old as Mathusela? PS 90:10 The length of our days is seventy years--or eighty, if we have the strength; yet their span is but trouble and sorrow, for they quickly pass, and we fly away..
    Why would you want to?

    johnp.
     
  11. Wes Outwest

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    Understand The parable of the sower, it is revealing in every species of life.
     
  12. Wes Outwest

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    Folks the issue here is original sin, not babies!
     
  13. johnp.

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    What's the problem Wes?
    Tell you what, I'll give you a clue as to why babies die Wes. It as to do with original sin. It must have a basis in the fall because the wages of sin is death. The baby is not reckoned to have done good or bad so the the only reason the baby dies is because it is conceived dead in spirit which is sin. It is not a sin but is sin. All other sins stem from being dead to God.
    Why do babies die Wes if you have another answer?
    The Parable of the Sower is spoken to sinners how can it have anything to do with original sin? Expand on this please.

    johnp.
     
  14. Wes Outwest

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    What's the problem Wes?
    Tell you what, I'll give you a clue as to why babies die Wes. It as to do with original sin. It must have a basis in the fall because the wages of sin is death. The baby is not reckoned to have done good or bad so the the only reason the baby dies is because it is conceived dead in spirit which is sin. It is not a sin but is sin. All other sins stem from being dead to God.
    Why do babies die Wes if you have another answer?
    The Parable of the Sower is spoken to sinners how can it have anything to do with original sin? Expand on this please.

    johnp.
    </font>[/QUOTE]The principles in the Parable of the sower apply to all living species.

    Now tell me what specifically is "original sin"?
     
  15. NateT

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    What are you looking for? Are you looking for what the original sin was? How original sin affects us? A fairly good definition was provided in my first post. In fact, if you're asking Calvinists, I would think that would be THE definition since it was written by Calvin.

    Original sin was that Adam sinned. Adam was the father of the human race, and so as the human race propagated, so did his sin. I'm not sure but I would imagine Calvin held to a traducianistic (sp?) view of generation. In other words, that the sould is created by the same act that creates the body. Namely from the union of sperm and egg. That is how original sin continues to exist today.
     
  16. johnp.

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    Wes.

    A little more expanded if you don't mind.
    It is a dead spirit. Adam caused this disconnect and passed it on because he was the mould from which we all sprang.
    A dead spirit is one that is cut off from God's Spirit. It happened in the garden as man overreached himself, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
    And die we did, in spirit, and a little later in the body.

    johnp.
     
  17. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi JohnP
    Completely wrong Not one word of it is scriptural as usual. Cain and Able both spoke with God And that was after the Garden. Cain was lost because he killed his brother and Able wasn't.

    May Christ Shine His light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  18. johnp.

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    ILUVLIGHT.

    I speak to God and He speaks to me. What? Are you suggesting God cannot communicate with sinners? I ask you the question.
    Abel was born again. Gen 4:4 But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.
    Abel He loved Cain He hated.
    I said, Adam caused this disconnect and passed it on because he was the mould from which we all sprang.
    The scriptures says;
    Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
    Romans 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

    I said;
    ...but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.
    You said;
    Completely wrong Not one word of it is scriptural as usual.

    Sorry I should have put chapter and verse by that. It's Gen 2:17.

    johnp.
     
  19. Wes Outwest

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    A little more expanded if you don't mind.
    It is a dead spirit. Adam caused this disconnect and passed it on because he was the mould from which we all sprang.
    A dead spirit is one that is cut off from God's Spirit. It happened in the garden as man overreached himself, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
    And die we did, in spirit, and a little later in the body.

    johnp.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Truly, if the human spirit is dead, then according to Jesus the flesh must likewise be dead. Jesus said,
    It is the word of God that causes our spirit to respond to HIM, but our human spirit is not dead lest our flesh be likewise dead. If our human spirit, the "life giver of our human essence" be dead, there would be nothing to "control the flesh" and make the flesh anything more than animal flesh. However our spirit is not dead, else we could not respond to God's Word. We could not accept or reject HIM! Because he addresses our spirit, not our flesh! Before you say it, Yes, God, the creator of flesh can heal the flesh too!

    The parable of the sower illustrates that not every seed become an adult plant. Not every human conceived becomes an adult human!

    The trouble with the illustration is that one could say that the plant species, which is what is used in the parable, has no sin nature. However, there is another school of thought that Sin permeates All of creation, not just humans, though humans were the first to sin.

    So, just as an uncertain amount of seeds do not become adult plants, an uncertain amount of human babies do not become adult humans.

    You can attribute that to Sin if you wish, or you can attribute that to God's creation, the way things are!
     
  20. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi JohnP;
    I think that you have forgotten that Christ is God in the flesh and He spoke to every sinner he met. That fact alone proves you wrong about God speaking to sinners

    What you quoted didn't back up your claim that man died spiritually.
    This is what you were trying to Show;
    But this is not what the scripture you quoted says. What you said is not scriptural.
    Then in your next post you offer this as proof of spiritual death;
    Not one word deals with the spirit of man dying because of Adam's sin.

    What you overlook is that once we are saved we are suppose to be alive to Christ but dead to sin how ever we do commit enough of it don't you think?
    So if we aren't able to respond to the gospel because of our depraved state while still a natural man. Then how can we sin once we have been made dead to sin? You see your idea of being dead spiritually is distorted. Certainly if we can sin once we are saved then we can choose to trust in Christ when we are spiritually dead. The Jailers asked Paul what they had to do in order to be saved.
    Paul said;
    Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
    Belief always comes before Salvation.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     

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