ORIGINAL SIN---Exactly what is it according to CALVINISM?

ILUVLIGHT

Are you serious or what?

Too late for Jesus to have done any good!?

Well yes I was for a while.

Who Samuel? Samuel was Eli's son? Was he. This comes as some surprise. Enlighten me please. How is Sam the man Eli's son?
All those bibles you possess and you tell me that Sam was Eli's son!
1Sa 3:19 And Samuel grew, and the LORD was with him, and did let none of his words fall to the ground.

Well yes I was for a while. You see the responsibility was placed firmly on Eli, 13 For I told him that I would judge his family forever because of the sin he knew about; his sons made themselves contemptible, and he failed to restrain them.
There, the sin of the father bearing directly on his sons. So your 'sins are not passed on' might be true but the consequences of them are the same. We don't need to die for our father's sins we have plenty of our own. Often worked in us by our family.
It was Eli's responsibility to grow his kids up properly.

I would judge his family forever because of the sin he knew about 1 Sam 3:13. Forever. Forever means always. Till the end of time.
Now the thing is that I do not like to use absolutes very much. If we say that sometime in the future God would repent of His decision, I do not like to say that either but just for now, and accepts Eli's family back. From the time God tells Eli to such a time as God repents those ones who die die for Eli's sins whether you like that or not. Unless you want to make 'forever' 'never'.
I would judge his family forever because of the sin he knew about 1 Sam 3:13

johnp.

 

Wes.

You admit it man! If it was atonement then it would read "for by atonement you are saved through faith". But it is by grace through faith. Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
A gift.

It would say that. You are right. But it says grace.

johnp.

 

Wes.

Then why is God your Saviour if it is your faith that saves you?

johnp.

 

Yes! I see the problem as being one of faith! Your religion is sin oriented, where mine is FAITH IN GOD centered! Lacking faith is not a sin that one commits, it is the condition of one's spirit that leads to death, the second death of Revelation 20. Who ever's name is not found in the book of Life gets cast into the lake of fire, the second death! Yes, Names can be added to the book and Names can be blotted from the book! So, Yes one can Hear and believe, thereby getting His name written in the book. AND, one can lose their faith, and thereby get their name blotted from the book!

Scriptures say that "we wrestle not with flesh and blood but with principalities and powers". Sin is a power that keeps men enslaved. Jesus' atonement for sin broke that power of sin by paying the penalty that sin demands. It was the Penalty that sin demands that prevented ANY man who sins from having everlasting life. However, that Penalty has been paid in Full by the Christ, resulting in ALL of mankind having the same possibility of receiving everlasting life (salvation) by having FAITH in God. Faith cometh by hearing (knowledge, generally speaking), and Hearing by the word of God (specific knowledge). "For lack of knowledge my people perish", God!

Those who reject God, do not die for sin, because the penalty of sin has already been paid ONCE, FOR ALL! You cannot be penalized when the penalty has been paid. No man faces death because of sin! The only reason for man to face the second death is personal LACK OF FAITH in God!

Salvation is given to the individual who, while God's grace is present, comes to faith in God. Scriptures tell us that Eli's house certainly lacked faith in God. So, NO AMOUNT OF ATONEMENT could overcome the rejection of God by Eli's house. There is NO salvation for Eli's house because they reject God. No amount of atonement which covers ALL sins in ALL times has any effect on those who DO NOT HAVE FAITH, even though the sin that is atoned for by the Christ covered the sin the unfaithful commit.

ATONEMENT DOES NOT SAVE, else scriptures would say "for by atonement you are saved through faith". Scriptures do say that we are saved THROUGH FAITH! It is whosoever believeth in HIM, should not perish but HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. IT IS NEVER STATED IN SCRIPTURE THAT, "WHOSOEVER DOES NOT SIN SHALL HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE", BECAUSE ALL HAVE SINNED! God knows that, so why would his word say that atonement saves?

THE WAGE FOR SIN IS DEATH? Paul was trying to break the mindset of the OLD Covenant dealing with Blood sacrifice! Under the OLD Covenant, sin brought death. But under the NEW covenant, FAITH brings LIFE. So, he said to them that the wage for sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life to those who have faith!

The ATONEMENT DOES NOT SAVE, FAITH IN THE ATONER DOES! </font>[/QUOTE]I must say that answering this post does go against my better judgement...oh well, here goes!

Wes wrote:

Your criticism of me of being a heretic, is a matter of perspective and your own personal persuasion. I believe you would tell Jesus to his face that He is heretic!

If you would kindly notice, I did not call you a heretic. I simply stated that your position was “Nothing short of heresy.” I believe the proverbial jury is still out on you being a heretic.

And now a word of caution: Do not presume to think you know what I would say to Jesus. This is an ad hominem argument. You direct your response “at the man” and not at the subject being discussed. This is a tool used by cowards, silly little people, and small children who resort to such phrases as “I know you are but what am I.” I would rather hope that you are not in this category and I am more than willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. It is up to you, now, to prove that you are not if the ilk who resort to name-calling. A word to the wise should be sufficient, now on to the bulk of the discussion.

You wrote:

I see the problem as being one of faith! Your religion is sin oriented, where mine is FAITH IN GOD centered!

This is as far as we need discuss. I think you have missed the point in that you are diminishing the entirety of how the Bible deals with sin. Of course my Religion is sin-oriented, I am, after all, a Christian and Christianity is a sin-oriented religion.

I would draw your attention, again, to 1 Corinthians 15:3: For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for OUR SINS in accordance with the scriptures.

It is obvious, according to the Apostle Paul, that our problem is ultimately a sin problem. If it is not, then why did Christ die for our sins? Why could He not just give us faith, as you suggest is the crux of Christianity? The answer is simple: The Bible, as a whole, sees our problem as a sin problem. From Adam and Eve to Noah to the children of Israel to us today, it is a SIN problem.

The truth of the matter is that humans have a very big sin problem and this is over and above any problem that we have with faith. Christ did not die to give everybody faith. He died to pay the price of sin.

You further wrote:

Sin is a power that keeps men enslaved. Jesus' atonement for sin broke that power of sin by paying the penalty that sin demands.

This is, of course, unbiblical. Christ did not die to pay a sin-demanded penalty. He died to pay a God-demanded penalty. Sin is not a power. Sure, Paul writes that we (Christians) were once slaves to sin. This is a matter of our state of being outside of God’s grace. When saved, a Christian becomes a slave to righteousness.

Because God is just, He cannot forgive sin. He can’t sweep it under the rug and act like it never happened. He demands a payment for it. Either a person pays for it themselves (in Hell) or Christ pays for it on the cross. These are the only two biblical options.

Perhaps, I have misunderstood your statements. If so, please forgive me and clarify your points. Until then, God bless.

The Archangel

 

This simple acronym should do:

God’s
Riches
At
Christ’s
Expense

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Let me remind you of your post Wes.

You said that if it was the atonement that saved then it would read, 'it is by atonement you are saved'. You said that.
I said that would be right if the scripture said that but it does say, 'it is by grace you are saved'.

"Grace",

Explain how Grace saves anyone or anything!

Explain grace to you? No. I am more interested in the statement you made first.
'if it was the atonement that saved then it would read, it is by atonement you are saved', was either the truth or you made an error.
If you believe it to be true then good. If you would like to retract it then that is good also but don't try to ignore it.

God doesn't care where the seeds of humanity fall. Your Parable of the careless Sower shows God gives everyone the same chance, luck of the draw.
He doesn't save anyone in your belief system but just enables one to be free of guilt. It is you that saves you by believing thus living up to the promise 'you shall be like God'.
It is still the same lie being peddled and it is the same lie that the world so loves to hear.
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. But that was only Paul.

johnp.

 

Hi JohnP;
What do you assume was that judgement was the sentence Hell eternal because if it was then why was the Lord with Samuel.
1Sa 3:12 In that day I will perform against Eli all things which I have spoken concerning his house: when I begin, I will also make an end.
So this wasn't really forever because forever doesn't have an end. Not to mention that Samuel was Eli's son and yet he became a prophet. So either we have a Threat here by the Lord or the Lord Changed His mind about the judgement. The Prophets were anointed by the Lord so samuel must have been as well. Yes the Lord can change His mind. He's God He can do what ever He wants.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

ILUVLIGHT.

I am afraid I cannot understand this sentence. I presume.
What do you assume was that judgement, Hell eternal? Because if it was then why was the Lord with Samuel.
Much as I'd like to answer you as to why God was with Sam the man and not with Eli's house I am afraid I have no knowledge as to why God does anything except it will reveal His glory.
The fact that He loved Samuel and hated Eli's house is a fact. All the descendants of Eli suffered because of Eli and his irresponsiblity over the fathering of his children. His children were Hophni and Phinehas by the way.
What do you assume was that judgement, Hell eternal?
Everlasting punishment in the Lake of Fire when the doors open. Until then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 2 Peter 2:9.

Was it never by any chance? I would judge his family forever, [my God says], because of the sin he knew about 1 Sam 3:13. Forever. Forever means always. Till the end of time.

Eli was not Samuel's father. Samuel was not Eli's son. Eli and Samuel were not related. Why don't you read the story?
Samuel was indeed anointed by the Lord to be a prophet.
Elkanah lay with Hannah his wife, and the LORD remembered her. 20 So in the course of time Hannah conceived and gave birth to a son. She named him Samuel, saying, "Because I asked the LORD for him." 1 Sam 1:19.
1Sa 3:19 And Samuel grew, and the LORD was with him, and did let none of his words fall to the ground.
Eli's house were anointed to serve at the sacrifices and Eli was the anointed prophet for Israel. What? All men serve the Lord so all men are anointed for their tasks.
Your problem remains. God tells Eli that those who die in Eli's house die judged, sinners unforgiven, because no sacrifice was to be offered for Eli's house because of Eli, whether you like that or not, because of Eli!
I would judge his family forever because of the sin he knew about 1 Sam 3:13

johnp.

 

Wes.

You said that if it was the atonement that saved then it would read, 'it is by atonement you are saved'. You said that.
I said that would be right if the scripture said that but it does say, 'it is by grace you are saved'.[/b]
Would you care to comment on this? I feel as if you want to avoid it for some reason. Also, if you have a moment, explain that thing about Hell being 'momentary' please.

Not chance? Are you sure that the careless sower was not sowing chance? Sulely the seed falls where gravity and circumstance dictate. Nothing to do with the seed. Chance?

What is God's plan, chance? God rested? John 5:17 Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." God is in a state of Grace toward his creation. 2 Peter 2:9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. Some grace.

PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel.
PS 147:20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.
Romans 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
Sounds like it man! Reprobation in the air.

Nothing to it is there? There is a great danger to you in this. I mean your selfrighteousness, believing in Jesus is righteous is it not, must make it all to easy to lose it to pride. Be on your guard for it man.

I thought you said that if you believed in Jesus you would be saved. Now you say that you must wait for an appointed time to be saved. And that is because you must persevere until you die and hope that you believed to the end or you will not be saved?
You do not believe that he who began the work in you will see it through to completion. That's because you don't believe in yourself. Your hope is in you and that is condemned. Lake of Fire stuff.

Yea I know a level playing field you said.
PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel.
PS 147:20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.
Romans 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
That's God's level playing field. He is a consuming fire.

I see you are still having colon problems with John 6:29. I pray that you are soon recovered.

So you are saying that Jesus does save people? How does He save people then? Does this not make it an uneven playing field. Are you saying He saves some but does not save others? If Jesus saves then why are not all saved? He does not save all does He? How does Jesus save people?

How exactly does He save people Wes please?

In your own words Jesus is just an enabler and man is his own saviour yet you say He saves people. You are confused about something I can tell.

You said that if it was the atonement that saved then it would read, 'it is by atonement you are saved'. You said that.
I said that would be right if the scripture said that but it does say, 'it is by grace you are saved'.[/b] Would you care to comment on this? Thank you.