Featured Original sin (pre-Augustine)

I like that answer :thumbsup::thumbs: :godisgood:

 

Winman

I am glad you like it...now if you had listened weeks ago you would not repost the error over and over.

Not in this case at all as the texts are clear on this,and not in dispute.The fact of the Covenant death of jesus and the imputation of his righteousness to All IN HIM is quite clear.

I have posted the truth on this several times.....ALL SINNED...at one point in
time....all sinned In Adam......not even a question.

 

Translation- this thread completely backfired on me, and so I am abandoning my original premise that the early church fathers supported that we are born with a sinful nature enslaved by sin that agrees with Calvinism.

 

Oh, I agree that doctrine should be formed on scripture alone, that is why I do not believe in original sin.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Solomon wrote that God has made man upright or sinless, and the word "they" is plural and points back to "man" showing this is speaking of ALL men.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Romans 9:11 shows that children have not sinned and therefore are not sinners, just as the early church fathers believed.

I believe I could show you hundreds of scriptures that prove man is not born a sinner, but you would not accept them.

You cannot show a single verse of scripture that says man is born a sinner. I challenge you to show it.

 

I do not fear Augustine, either. I simply wish to avoid his teachings.

 

And at the end of your post, you should have added: "rightly translated and interpreted".

 

You CANNOT argue from scripture. Augustine argued Original Sin almost exclusively from Romans 5:12 from a flawed Latin text that said "in whom all have sinned" which he assumed referred to Adam. Even scholars who support Original Sin say the text he used was flawed and should read "because all have sinned" or "for that all have sinned" showing death passes on each man for his own personal sin, not Adam's. This is a FACT.

The early church fathers before Augustine were very Pelagian as you would call it, this is an historical fact. They did not believe men were born sinners, in fact, they believed all babies were born pure, innocent of sin. They believed all men had the power and ability of free will.

History does not support you, the early church fathers were about as far from being Calvinists as a person could possibly be. Again, these are the FACTS.

 

I am not arguing that sinners can not do good. I'm arguing sinners are sinners.
And in reality begin to sin soon after birth relative to the holiness of God.

 

Isn't it interesting that no one before Augustine, or Calvin, saw what they saw in scripture.

 

You do not know that at all.How many people even had scriptures in their hands before the printing press?

 

I would agree 100% that all men begin to sin soon AFTER BIRTH. This is what the scriptures actually teach.

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

You don't see this verse from those who teach men are born sinners, God says men's imagination is evil "from his youth". This actually means about the time a person becomes a teenager. It is a fact that this is about the time persons who become criminals first turn to crime, the time of life when persons choose the path they will follow in life. It is also true that most Christians receive Christ as their Saviour from about 8-13 years old.

This is when the scriptures teach a person becomes a sinner.

When the scriptures say we are a servant to sin, it does not mean we are compelled to sin and MUST sin. It means we are bound by sin to DEATH.

The moment you sin you are SOLD to sin like a servant and belong to it, and the wages of sin is death. There is no escape from this bondage, this is how we are enslaved.

When we trust Christ we are baptized into his body and die with him to sin. Just as a wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives, we are bound to sin as long as we live. When we die with Jesus to sin we are no longer bound or enslaved to sin but free to be married to another, which is Christ. We are now under grace.

It does not mean you are compelled to sin, even a slave can disobey his master, he can run away from his master. Even though we are under the bondage of sin and sentenced and condemned to death, we have the ability to obey God.

Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

This passage explains what I just told you. We are now DEAD to sin, we no longer belong to sin as a servant.

But notice also that Paul does not say a person is compelled to sin, but all men YIELD themselves to sin, and that Paul teaches that a man can also YIELD himself to obey God. In fact, Paul thanks God that these persons had OBEYED from the heart the gospel that was delivered unto them.

This is the problem, folks misunderstand what it means to be a servant of sin. Likewise, we are not compelled to do right when we get saved, otherwise Paul would not have to tell us to put on the new man and to put away sin in our lives.

 

I agree with you. Because Christ died for us we should strive to live our life as slaves unto our new master, the Lord Jesus.

Does that mean we will not sin any more. No, it means sin no longer has dominion over us, that is, sin can't kill us and keep us dead.

As Jesus said, "The gates of Hades shall not prevail against us."

What is your thoughts about the line from the song, "There is A Fountain," that says, "Til all the ransomed church of God be saved to sin no more," is that scriptural? Is it present or future or a misstatement?