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Original sin

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dale-c, Aug 16, 2009.

  1. JDale

    JDale Member
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    Thanks OR. :)
     
  2. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Marcia, this is the whole point right here.

    The bible is ambiguous on the eternal destiny of those who die in infancy. However it is quite clear that they like all others are in need of Grace.
     
  3. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    My only question with the London confession is point four. If this is indeed the state of man how do you explain good in unregenerate man? Because if all we are inclined to do is evil then why do we do good?
     
  4. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    God still restrains the evil of men.
    Man is still not as evil as he could be.

    Also, it is important to note that in a sense, all that an unsaved man does is sinful because he does it in unbelief.
    So while a man who is unsaved may lay down his life in a heroic manner to save the life of others, that earns him no merit.

    In short, it is impossible for the unbeliever to even do good with the right motives.
     
  5. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Just to point out my belief. Is that Men are created in the image of God so we are good and are able to do good. Yet we are fallen so we are intent on opposing God which leads to evil. However, our sin doesn't prohibit us from doing good. It does lead us astray of God. We are debase in that we have no desire in of ourselves for God. So it becomes all about us making gods of ourselves which when I please myself over others at their expense this is an evil. But the unregenerate man may do good and may be selfless. Thats my belief anyway.

    Now are you saying that if a man gives to the poor, helps the widow, is a champion of justice then because this is not done in faith; its evil or bad?
     
    #25 Thinkingstuff, Aug 18, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 18, 2009
  6. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Actually, the issue here is deeper than where infants go - it has to do with the biblical view of man and sin. Is man born in sin or not? It has been the Christian view for 2,000 years that man is born in sin and needs redemption. Otherwise, you are saying that babies don't need redemption or grace.


    No, a person is born condemned and needs God's grace. We are not uncondemned until we hear and reject the gospel, unless you are an Inclusivist.


    So do you believe that infants do not need redemption?


    A possible argument for your view but not enough, imo.



    This is an argument I agree with that one could use for your view, but it's not a solid one, it just offers some backing.


    This does not mean that David would see his son again - it might mean that but it's not clear.

    As I said before, I believe infants go to heaven if they die, but it is because of God's grace. To me, the real issue is: do infants need redemption? It seems many here do not think so.

    So, I can't tell from what you say here whether or not you believe infants need redemption? Are people born needing grace and salvation or not?

     
  7. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I think any good that an unbeliever does is a distant reflection of the fact that everyone is made in the image of God. However, the reflection is so tarnished and clouded by sin, that such "good" is probably very murky looking to an absolutely righteous God.

    I also have wondered about whether an unbeliever can really do good in God's eyes (certainly, by society's standard it is possible). I know when I was an unbeliever, the "good" I did was usually motivated by selfish desires to impress others, to impress myself, to earn merit for the next life (I believed in reincarnation), or something along those lines. I was rarely motivated by the desire to do good just to do good - if ever.

    I believe that the view of God's righteousness has fallen a few notches lower among Christians today.
     
  8. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Bingo again Marcia.
    You have just drawn the line between historic orthodox Christianity and pelagianism.
    Baptist pelagians and semi pelegians can deny the term all they want do to the stigma attached to it but that is what they are non the less.
     
  9. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Well, it's good to see someone else state that people are born dead in sin! This is the historic Christian view and the biblical view. I'm shocked at some of the views here on this.
     
  10. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    I am shocked myself.
    No wonder people don't like to be called arminians around here.
    As my pastor said, most today are semi-pelagians.
     
  11. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    That is exactly what we are saying. Because that is exactly what the Bible teaches.
     
  12. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Doesn't Jesus clearly say that nothing is really good other than God? Mark 10:18 Excellent point
     
  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    .....Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, even God. Lu 18:19

    I am the good shepherd.......Jn 10:11
     
  14. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I believe that must be understood in the context of those who believe in works salvation.
     
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