Osama bin Laden's punishement

I agree with Chet. I don't think anyone here advocates the actions being discussed until we're 100% sure. However, bin Laden has vowed to destroy the United States and is training hundreds, perhaps thousands of men in terrorist tactics to do that very thing.

The world coalition that appears to be forming is vowing to wage war against terrorism and terrorists worldwide. If it turns out that bin Laden didn't organize this cowardly deed, then he drops from #1 to #2 on the hit-list.

I hear what you compassionate people are saying, but folks, we're dealing with Islamic trained terrorists who are growing and spreading worldwide. They are very active in the Phillipines, Malaysia, Europe, and Africa. They hate Christians. They hate capitalism. They hate Westerners. They hate democracy, and they have sworn an oath to kill us or die trying for Allah. Remember the movie "Terminator?" Kyle told the woman, "He will not stop. He cannot stop, until you are terminated."

Now Flyfree, if you want to invite a few of these guys over for some donuts and hot chocolate and talk about Jesus, you go right ahead. As for me, I'll ride shotgun in an F-16!

 

Well said Chet.

 

I understand the anger that we are feeling...and I think that it goes without saying...it's just. And, as I've stated in other posts on a different thread, I am positive that God speaks very clearly about government being given the authority to exact his wrath against nations that rise up against us. And believe me, when they give the word that we are going to strike, I will send a prayer of thanksgiving up to God. I hate to think of the ramifications if we DON'T act on this. At the same time though, everytime I've picked up my bible today God's been calling me to a certain passage. I have to be honest with you and say that until just about an hour ago...I tried to tune him out. I REALLY did not want to deal with this passage right now! I hate it when that happens! (although, it usually happens for a reason!) I hope no one takes offense...I'm not condemning you for your opinions and feelings on this, because I share in that and feel the same way. Each time I see the faces of these people searching for their loved ones I can just feel the anger and disgust for the monster who did this, but I am starting to refelct on this passage now, each time I begin to feel that way:

Philippians 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Sure does seem like an awful lot is being expected of us here! But even with this passage, I don't think that it means we shouldn't wage war on them...after much prayer about this, the way God is leading my heart is that Yes, I am a born sinner, I don't have God's perfect nature so I'm sure he understands our outrage, our desire to seek justice, some may disagree with me there, so be it, but what I get out of this verse it while I may feel the way I do about this situation, instead of allowing my mind to dwell or linger on any of these thoughts, I need to replace those thoughts with thoughts of those things which are of God. I'm trying to focus on the work that is being done for God during this time. Instead of plaguing my mind with thoughts of how many people died without knowing the Lord, I try to think of how many souls came to know him during their last moments on earth. How many that may still be trapped right now are experience his loving, comforting touch! I only bring this up on this board because it is doing a tremendous work in my heart and if it could help someone else, that would be wonderful. Be angry...definitly...God tells us, he instructs us to do this, but, be angry and sin not. While reflecting on the above passage will not change my mind on the necessity of us striking back...it will soften my heart and allow me to not only see, but to be aware of God's blessing during this time.

 

John, your claim that nobody here advocates doing anything until we're 100 % sure is disingenuous given your earlier posts. You sure were awfully certain earlier about.

Chet, rather than presume to pronounce on "how you feel", I will just say that what you advocate, along with the likes of John and Bob, is not love. It is hate. Love does not take pleasure in other people's misfortunes, or in the contemplation of torture.

Thank you for quoting from the Old Testament. I notice that you, John, and Bob are so far unable to find any words of Jesus to support your hateful lust for vengance. Anybody can twist one OT verse into a justification for their abominable behavior. That's what Bin Laden does. _I feel_ that Christians ought to reflect the light of truth that Jesus revealed in the New Covenant. Now you know how I feel, and it saddens me to know that you feel sorry for it.

Ask yourself how this fits into God's plan for your life. Is God trying to help you grow in anger and blood lust? Don't we Baptists take pride, sometimes sinful pride, in the fact that our predecessors were cruelly persecuted for their beliefs, but returned good for evil. I wonder if those we claim as our fathers would claim us for their sons. I wonder how many of our American contemporaries think that we heap as much hate on blacks, mixed marriages, homosexuals, atheists, papists, and "liberal" christians as we do on Bin Laden. Do you think hate comes so easily to us because we practice it too frequently?

 

Daniel,

YOur position is one of "passifist pathetic!" You need to think about what it has taken historically for you to have the privalege to worship God freely today. Many have paid the price for that freedom. If you don't have the guts or the will to fight for your own and future generation's freedom, stand aside and leave it up to real men.

Jesus said we are to obey the governmental authority place over us because it is from God. Add to that what Paul said in Rom 13:1-4: Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

The only part of the OT that is not still applicable today is the sacrifical laws, because Jesus was the ultimate and final sacrifice. The attitude God had for wicked peoples in the OT has not changed today, or do you disagree? God didn't tell Joshua or David to treat them politely. He told them to eliminate the wicked people!

If you think the possibility exists to find middle ground and live in peace and harmony with radical Islamic fundamentalists, you are very misinformed. There is an unbreachable chasm between "turning the other cheek" to someone who slaps you and doing the same for someone who orders the murder of thousands of innocents, and has vowed to turn the US into a "Vietnam!" Should the world have "turned the other cheek" to Hitler? Read about the bloodshed of evil, unbelieving people that God will exact in the book of Revelation when: And the grapes were trodden in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress in a stream about 180 miles long and as high as a horse's bridle. (Rev 14:20 NLT)

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph over good is for good men to do nothing." -- unknown

 

Amen and Amen Brother John.

Daniel I would encourage you to read the passage in Samuel 15. Let me quote from God
the very first verses: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'" NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Being a strong dispensatinalist I am fully aware of the distinctions of the OT from the NT. This is an area where as Timothy 3:16 declares we can glean the instruction in righteousness. This is certainly an applicable passage. There are many other situations in the OT that would also apply.

I did quote Romans 13 as did John Wells. Last I checked that was found in the NT. And
it more than applies with the horror we have now faced. Israel is Gods glorious people,
they are currently blinded and fail to realize that Jesus was the Messiah. I would
be very weary of doing anything that would hurt the Jews. We as Americans should stand bodly in the face of any anti-semitism. While speaking primarily of the second coming after the great tribulation, Jesus spoke of those who did not help His People:

Matt 25:41-26:1
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." NIV

And let us not forget the great wrath of God, who is love, that will be upon the earth
when the great tribulation begins.

Let me also point out what does happen if we do nothing. This is a link to Larry’s post. Clinton did NOTHING

Lastly, do you really believe that this man who has sold his soul to his god, one who hates Christ will all his being will ever listen to anyone share with him the gospel? Yes Jesus can forgive him, but there comes a time when we shake that dust off our feet and reject such a one. He pure is evil. Perhaps the same thought will be prevalent when the Anti-Christ come on the scene?

John, is there room for me on that F-16?

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

God give us the strength and courage to carry out the God-given power to bring these
perverted, twisted, hateful, cowards to death. God I also pray for all those victims and their families... that their pain and death will not be in vein.

Chet

 

Preach it Brothers Wells & Chet! AMEN!

The God of the Old Testament is the SAME God of the New Testament...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Ecclesiastes 1:9: "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>John 14:9: "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kathy
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[ September 14, 2001: Message edited by: Kathy ]

 

A whole lot of unbiblical unchristlike things on the BB lately.

===In the gospel I listened to in church today, Jesus said we should love our enemies and return good for evil.

Now I could be totally off base with this and if i am so be it. But it seems that some are harboring a deep venomous hate for Bin Ladin. Let go of it! Where is hating him going to get you? It will just bring turmoil in your own soul. ===

Just what I've been trying to say on another thread, that it seems is not being listened too. Anymore it doesn't suprise me(since being on line for two years) that even christians don't want to know or do whats right.

 

If a country from the west were to execute any of these terrorists it might bring repercussions from other terrorists. However, if could turn these terrorists over to a country based on Islamic law. The penalty for murder under Islamic law is also death. Let them be convicted and executed by fellow Moslems as criminals and not martyrs.

 

John, thanks for telling me I am a "passifist pathetic." Perhaps you meant "pacifist." Since the Baptist faith has a strong and proud history of pacifism I choose to take this as a compliment rather than view it as a violation of BB.c's rules against personal attacks.

Do you mean to say, in your second paragraph, that the people of Afghanistan must obey their Taliban rulers? Did you know that the Taliban forbid Christian proselytizing? Are you saying that Afghan Christians are morally obligated to renounce Jesus? Or that members of Bin Laden's organization, which is like a government with him at the head, are morally obligated to carry out his lethal demands? In fact, they are no more obligated to obey their rulers than we would be in a similar circumatance. Do you understand Jesus's admonition to give to Caesar what is his, or are you just hurling verses to support your own hateful desire for bloodshed?

All men are created in the image and likeness of God. It is a sin to take pleasure in other people's misfortune. (A catholic priest told me that.) Modern horror fiction author Gahan Wilson published a book titled _The Devil's Dictionary_. In it, happiness is defined as "the contemplation of other people's misery." Enjoying this kind of happiness, which you are doing, is a grave sin.

Vengeful blood lust is not the same as righteous anger.

 

Danial, I said your position was "pacifist pathetic" and thanks for the spelling correction, but you might want to be more accurate regarding "name calling." As for the rest of your comments, my argument is from scripture, which you didn't bother to refute. Then you give a human naturalist response, not based on scripture. Hardly worth commenting as much as I have.

 

So basically some of you are saying that every time the nation of Judah/Israel retaliated against their enemies, they were unGodly? Clarify for me when nations ARE allowed to defend themselves, because that is EXACTLY what America HAS to do! If you enjoy your freedoms (i.e. Women: do you like that you can leave your house and go shopping WITHOUT the escort of a man? Men & Women: Do you appreciate the fact that your voice is heard via vote?) Please tell me what it is about FREEDOM that you oppose? Our nation was founded by GODLY CHRISTIAN men. Many of whom gave their lives so that you can enjoy FOOD without limit, CLOTHING to your liking, RIGHTS OF SPEECH and RELIGION, to name a few.

I am not trying to stir up anger (that would be unChristlike), I am merely trying to understand from YOUR perspective when it would be ok for us to defend ourselves? The OT is full of examples...which I think is what the Bible is meant to be...an example of how we should live. Just because we are no longer under sacrificial laws of the OT doesn't mean that the OT is totally null and void. Nope, I'll use the Bible...the WHOLE Bible and nothing but the ENTIRE Bible.

Kathy
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Kathy,

I have not said that Judah was ungodly, nor that I oppose freedom, nor self defense, nor clothing, speech or religion, nor the OT. Why do you feel it necessary to attribute those claims to me? Putting words in someone's mouth is a strange way to avoid stirring up anger.

I do oppose hateful vengance, torture, and bloodshed for the sake of satifying man's base passions. I also oppose those who hide their evil behind a false mask of patriotism.

Since you like to use the entire bible, please tell me what Jesus thinks of the pleas for torture and humiliation, and the gleeful cackling at the sad thought that the terrorists are probably suffering in hell, that are heard on this board? Jesus taught us to do good to our enemies, and that His Father deplores the loss of even a single soul.

John, humanist argument? I think I said that your actions seemed to be grave sin. Since when do humanists talk much about grave sin?

Let us join in prayer for victim and tormentor alike, for those who grieve and those who rejoice because of the murders, and for those whose anger drives them far from God in their thoughts and actions.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daniel Davidson:
Kathy,

I have not said that Judah was ungodly, nor that I oppose freedom, nor self defense, nor clothing, speech or religion, nor the OT. Why do you feel it necessary to attribute those claims to me? Putting words in someone's mouth is a strange way to avoid stirring up anger.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uhhh, if you read my post, I did not mention your name AT ALL, therefore, PRAY TELL, how did I manage to put words in your mouth?

And BTW, the bait you laid out (with scathing speech), no thanks...I won't blow my testimony for someone I don't know.

Have a great day!

Kathy
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Daniel said, "John, humanist argument? I think I said that your actions seemed to be grave sin. Since when do humanists talk much about grave sin?"

You take your advice from a Catholic priest and a Modern horror fiction author. I consider that to be humanist.

How so do you judge me to have gravely sinned?

[ September 14, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]

 

Kathy,

Your post was a response to many of the things David brought up and you did use the connotation "you" in your phrasing which fairly clearly directs your post towards David.

I think it will be very interesting looking at this thread a month or so after it dies off...

Until Next Post, Adam

 

As my pastor said Wednesday evening:

You can't be nice to a terrorist and win him over . . . the only thing he responds to is his own terror.

 

Adam, go back and read the first sentence...it says "SOME OF YOU" how am I singling that guy out? He was not the only one who brought up such issues, so be careful what you accuse. I was giving my opinion and asking for MANY opinions in return.

Kathy
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