OSAS and Perseverance of the Saints

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Oct 13, 2007.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Some (like 4 point Calvinists) deny the Bible doctrine on perseverance altogether.

    Others accept perseverance -- but they split into two groups. Those who cling to OSAS while accepting the Bible doctrine on Perseverance - and those who reject OSAS while accepting the Bible doctrine on Perseverance.

    This thread is about those two Perseverance groups.

    Some argue that all the saved WILL persevere firm until the end "by definition" - They say that if a saved person does not persevere "then they never were saved to begin with".

    That model will "retro-delete assurance today" for anyone who fails to persevere ten years from today.

    However the next post will show that the Bible presents the topic of perseverance as a WARNING to the saints NOT as a scientific observation about the nature of saints.

    Is the Bible giving WARNINGS of the form "if you are human you should try to age one day older every day instead of staying the same age day after day". Is the Bible warning us to do what we already do (aging) by definition?

    OR is the Bible WARNING of the form "REMEMBER to watch your children closely and protect them in this dangerous and sinful age - be diligent with them regarding the internet, music, their friends, school, their environment, quality education..." - something that does not happen "by definition".

    Read the list of texts and let me know your thoughts.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. BobRyan

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    Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.


    1 Timothy 4:16
    Pay
    close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.


    Heb 2:1-3
    1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it
    Heb 3:6
    but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
    and the boast of our hope
    firm until the end.
    Heb 3:12-14
    12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
    13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
    by the deceitfulness of sin.
    14 For we have become partakers of Christ,
    if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


    Heb 10:35-39
    35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
    36 For you have
    need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
    37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
    38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
    39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

    1Cor 15:1-2
    1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
    in which also you stand,
    2 by which also you are
    saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
    Rom 11:22
    20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
    21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
    22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
    if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
    23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


    Col 1:21-23
    22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
    Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
    23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY
    from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
    and of which I Paul was made a minister.



    Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to
    'he who overcomes'.

    Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
    8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
    Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
    9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will
    reap if we do not grow weary.

    Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
    Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
    Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
    who
    has endured to the end who will be saved."

    2Peter 1:10-11
    8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true
    knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
    10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as
    you practice these things,
    you will never stumble;
    11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.


     
  3. steaver

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    What do you want us to do brother? Go down through your list one by one and show you what each one teaches if kept in proper context, allowing scripture to harmonize scripture?

    This has been done for you over and over yet you still cling to self for your salvation.

    The scriptures are VERY clear! By grace ye have been saved through faith and NOT OF YOURSELF. This alone should cause any seeker of truth to reject any notion Jesus could somehow fail to keep His children saved.

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
  4. TCGreek

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    As simple as that! :thumbs:
     
  5. soninme

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    re : osas preservance ..................

    Salvation is trusting or believing in, by faith, that Jesus Christ paid for your sins with His blood on the cross of Calvary

    "He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath everlasting life:. . ." John 3:36

    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

    My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:29

    "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE,. . ." 1 John 5:13

    By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL. . . For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOR EVER them that are sanctified." Hebrews 10:10,14

    Wherefore he is able also to save them to the UTTERMOST that come unto God by him,. . ." Hebrews 7:25

    With all the PROMISES from God to KEEP you, to SAVE you, to PRESERVE you — to even suggest you could lose your salvation — is to call God a LIAR!

    ". . .he that BELIEVETH NOT GOD hath made him a LIAR; . . ." 1 John 5:10

    as simple as that :godisgood:
     
  6. BobRyan

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    While it should not be surprising that you were forced to completely dodge the question in the OP -- I ask again -- does anyone have the courage to step up and answer the question in the OP??

    Hint: I never doubted for an instant that all believers in OSAS could simply ignore the OP question and the texts that followed (to illustrate the OP question). You guys have demonstrated that you are fully capable of that in the past and I do not doubt you on that point. Neither was I exepting those who cling to OSAS to read the texts given and run from OSAS. Rather I assume that since you acccept both OSAS and Pereverance -- you would be delighted with the texts given. Rather than running from them "he we already answere those texts and we don't want to do it again". The Persevertance texts listd are not "posted to be answered" because they are perseverance texts and those responding were "theoretically" the group that ACCEPTS perseverance AND OSAS! They are posted to illustrate "the FORM" of the warning they present and ask you to select "Form A" or FORM B -- how do you read them?

    But will anyone be brave enough to edit the scriptures given or possibly just to assert that they are of the FIRST FORM listed in the question of the OP??

    Are these texts of FORM A -- a warning for humans "not to forget to physcially age each day" OR are they a warning of the FORM B -- to parents "to be diligent in watching the influences to which their children are exposed"??

    I.E a form of beware to cause what already happens by defition?

    OR of the form "beware to be diligent in areas where you are at risk"?

    having asked OP question "yet again" -- I applaud the high quality dodge-the-point-and-run already posted here.

    Excellent!

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #6 BobRyan, Oct 16, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2007
  7. steaver

    steaver
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    We find God's word on this here.....

    1Th 5:23¶And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    1Th 5:24Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it].

    1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

    Eph 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:


    See above.

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
  8. BobRyan

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    Steaver -- apparently you're still having a problem responding to even one of the texts given --

    Need more time?
     
  9. steaver

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    All the saved WILL persevere firm until the end "by definition" - if a saved person does not persevere "then they never were saved to begin with".

    We find God's word on this here.....

    1Th 5:23¶And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    1Th 5:24Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it].

    1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

    Eph 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:


    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
  10. BobRyan

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    I see "someone" on this list is still confused as to the question on the OP...

    Here it is "again"

    And of course the post that followed was ...
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1111076&postcount=2


    Now this is a very simple task for anyone not threatened by those texts --- and hopefully even the OSAS believers here do not find them threatening.

    So feel free to respond -- those of you who believe OSAS and also perseverance.

    (still waiting...)

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. BobRyan

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    A post for those still trying to find their way to the OP question and answer...


    I see...so if we DON't look at the texts given in the OP just so we DON't have to answer the question of the OP - THEN we can find OTHER texts that help us with a particular spin on Perseverance...

    No problem -- I get that.

    Now back to the OP.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. steaver

    steaver
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    It is probably just me brother, but I don't understand what you are asking.

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
  13. BobRyan

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    Let me know what part of my question is confusing to you and I will try to explain in even more repeated detail
     
  14. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE

    Yeah. Fortunately I have many books where I learn more about the amazing Grace of God in one line than in all the threads of BobRyan's together. But there are many not so fortunate - so one has to keep on answering the man for their sake -- and for the sake of the honour of Truth.
     
  15. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    BR
    "1 Timothy 4:16
    Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you."

    GE

    Many men of God and Calvinists or OSAS believers or just 'plain' Protestants' have never had any 'problems' with this text in thousands of expositions of it. You puncture a hole in the wall of your think-box through which to peep at this mountainous text, and cannot see where you walk, stumbling over the first rock in your path, and think you have conquered the mountain.
     
  16. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    One could say this text is one of the most 'popular' among Reformed clergy to preach on. Just try to understand, BobRyan, for one moment, that these preachers take for certain their congregation is the Body of Christ's, The Communion of Believers, men confessing Jesus Christ and believing in Him for the salvation of their souls. Just put yourself in the place of those preachers, who preach the Word trusting in their flock, accepting their genuine confession, respecting their faithfulness, sincerity and genuineness. You cannot. That's why you will never understand, Paul speaks to a fellow in Jesus. Only as this fellow redeemed could Paul address him with the admonition he addresses him in. Paul does not speak all the while distrusting Timothy. No for no moment would Paul think Timothy was a hypocrite, not really, but only pretending, to be a child of God. You have never approached this text from that angle. No, you must approach it in distrust of anyone - except perhaps yourself. The possibility of pretending and false witness - hypocrisy - constantly haunts you, because you have not the assurance of faith in yourself. O that you may free yourself of the shackels you locked around your own wrists and threw the key of away.
     
    #16 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Oct 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2007
  17. BobRyan

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    Hmm - I thought Steaver would have been back by now to clarify his point of confusion.

    Until then...:sleeping_2:
     
  18. steaver

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    You posted this question again in the thread "OSAS is only a problem for people who don't trust God" and I responded there (page two #17). You can paste my response here if you want and continue this thread.

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
  19. BobRyan

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    Page 2 post 17 of that thread -- you did not explain anything about the question that you asked here -- and you said nothing about the scriptures referenced in the OP here.

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1111076&postcount=2

    ...

    Rather you chose to look at 1Thess 5 and completely ignore both the question and the list of texts that the question is directed towards on this thread OP.

    Not sure that that addresses anything here.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. steaver

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    (Matt 10:22) is a promise of perserverance

    (1 Tim 4:16) Take heed...unto the doctrine of God and you will not be "giving heed....to doctrines of devils" (vs 1) . This is the contextual meaning of "save thyself". The hearers also will be saved from "giving heed to seducing spirits".

    (Heb 2:1-3) a saved person can drift away from what they have learned. No loss of salvation mentioned here.

    (Heb 3:6) if you hold fast you are saved.

    (Heb 3:12-14) We have become partakers of Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
    If one does not hold fast then one did not become a partaker of Christ.

    (Heb 10:35-39) Conclusion is we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul. OSAS.

    (1 Cor 15:1-2) If you hold fast you are saved.

    (Rom 11:22) both the unbelieving Jews (of the natural branches) and the unbelieving Gentiles (of the unnatural branches) will be cut off from Christ for unbelief.

    (Col 1:21-23) Those who continue in the faith are saved.

    (Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21) He who overcomes is saved.

    (Gal 6:7-9) we will reap if we do not grow weary.

    (Mark 13:13) promise of perserverance

    (2 Pt 1:10-11) grow in Christ and you will not stumble and will receive an entrance into the eternal kingdom ABUNDANTLY.

    Is there any other scriptures you might know that would seem a bit more difficult for one to dismiss your view of "saved then lost" with?

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     

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