Featured OSAS is a misleading term

I agree with much of what you wrote, though my post in this thread may not reflect it. I believe we are a dichotomy of substance, with a third "aspect" being our soul (psyche). The substance of a man consists of two natures - spirit and dust. Substance can fill a container. We could fill a bowl with blood, fill a box with bones, fill a trash bag with skin. Our immaterial substance is only immaterial to us. God can see our spirit, put our spirit into a body, or a trash bag if He wanted to. But the soul is not substance, it is "personality".

Soul = thoughts, emotions, will, rationale, memories, etc. You cannot have a bowl full of thoughts, or a basket full of emotions, or a box full of determination, a sack full of rationale, etc.

I think you might better understand my position if you read this thread:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=91626&highlight=body+soul+spirit+personality

We do, in fact, only procreate the physical aspect of our being. Traducianism is not biblical, coming from Tertullian's misunderstanding of what Paul wrote in Romans 5:12-21. By the time Tertullian came around, the church had about 150 years of fighting against Gnosticism. And from what I have noticed, there is almost ZERO reference in writers before him as to any distinction between spirit and body. Why? Possibly because that was the common ground between true Christianity and Gnostic heresy.

Seems to be that they downplayed the commonality and focused on how the Gnostics perverted the nature of Christ and other issues. By the time Tertullian came by, he was looking for a way to understand Paul's words that all men were made sinners because of Adam.

You also have to consider that Tertullian was Latin, not Greek. He is, after all, called the father of Western Christianity. So he had a different mindset from which he was trying to understand Paul. He invented Traducianism, and it is altogether unbiblical.

So how is it that you don't have to teach a baby to do evil? Simple - they are procreated from sinful flesh, therefore they are born with all the evil inclinations of this corrupted aspect of every human ever born. But they have a sinless spirit which comes from God - Zechariah 12:1 supports this, as does Ecclesiastes 12:7. And God does not have corrupt breath

A baby's mind, however, is still developing. They are simply expressing whatever seems to influence them in the moment. You will see times where they display pure innocence, being driven from the inside. And they act upon it. Then at times, you see them being driven by what they sense with their physical body - what they see, hear, smell, touch, etc. They desire something in their corrupted body, and it overcomes their psyche. Then that's all they think about, then they act upon it

 

Nooooooo!


His sheep have always ,and will forever, be His sheep. He chose us before the foundation of the world. To go from a goat to a sheep, He would have had to chose a non-elect to become an elect sometime after the world was made.

Sheep are sheep

Goats are goats

It's that plain....

 

He's confused...and posts accordingly....

 

So you believe sin is like material substance that can be poured into a box? You first define the flesh/dust as something that can fill a box and then claim that sin is something derived from material substance - the flesh. Sin is not material substance, neither it is derived from material substance (flesh). It is a product of the "spirit" as sin is spiritually derived not materialisticly derived. Note that Paul contrasts the "law of sin" to the "law of God" which he says is "spiritual" (Rom. 7:14). It is the "spirit" that needs to be born again but if your theory was correct there would be no need for the "spirit" to be born again as it comes clean from God at birth.

"the law of sin" is not material in substance but spirit in substance. Satan works from the outside in with regard to saints. He uses the natural cravings of the flesh. Remember, even Paul's physical problem was described as a "messenger of Satan." Sin has to do with the "intent" of the heart. Hence, the make up of man is more complex than one might think.

Your view is not David's or Job's view of sin or of a baby in relationship to sin. Sin has to do with "intent" or "motive" first and foremost. A baby is "self-centered" in regard to intent/motive and continues that way even to death apart from new birth and it is not a developmental consequence of mind at any stage of development.

Your logic that argues that simply because the "spirit" comes from God must mean it is sinless is irrational as the Bible also attributes the forming of the material substance in the womb by God as well. Physical life comes from God, the selection of the right egg containing the right formulation of DNA and the right sperm containing the right formulation of DNA is an act of God. Therefore, the body is as much from God as the spirit. However, the sinful nature is passed down through the father in regard to both material and immaterial depraved "spirit" which must be born again. The body/material is contaminated from the "spirit" not vice versa. That is true with Adam, he died SPIRIURALLY first, then the material substance was effected. Likewise, infants come with an sinful "spirit" which is why their material substance suffers physical death, because death already resides in their "spirit". That is why the "spirit" must be born of God FIRST and glorification comes SECOND. Your theory reverses this order.

When Adam sinned the whole human race sinned, as the whole of human nature (body, soul, and spirit) acted as one person and thus death entered into the world by one man and death by the sin of one man. That sin/death has been passed through the father to father. That is why Jesus had no physical father, and that is why no sin could be found "in" him.

Paul's argument is clear in Romans 5:14-15. There is universal death between Adam and Moses but No universal Law existed between Adam to Moses EXCEPT the law in Genesis 2:17 which all mankind violated in Adam. That is why infants suffer death. They had NO INDIVIDUAL sin, therefore their death is not a violation of conscience (as Arminians argue) but their death can only be attributed to the UNION OF NATURE in one man that acted together as one man in violating Genesis 2:17 and so that is the basis for Romans 5:16-19 - "by one man many" (1) are condemned; (2) be dead; (3) sinned.

 

11 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
yes it is lost sheep...not stray goats converted

 

One MUST distinguish what we ARE by (1) eternal purpose versus what we are in reality (2) "were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." - Eph. 2:3

This confusion between purpose and reality is the mother of many false doctrines. Again, read Isa. 46:10-11 carefully and you will see that what is purposed by God is not reality until "I will also do it" in time and space. It is just that simple. So we were always "sheep" by God's eternal purpose but in time and space prior to God's saving us, we were "children of wrath even as others" meaning we were "lost" and "unregenerated" and thus in reality we were "goats" by nature and then we were CHANGED - TRANSFORMED - called out of the kingdom OF DARKNESS into the kingdom of His dear Son, children of Satan who were born into the family of God and became in time and space "children of God."

 

Exactly! None of us were born in a right relationship to God, and None of us were reconciled back to Him in this life until we had received Jesus thru faith!

God knew that I would receive jesus due to him electing me out from eternity past, but until the blood of Jesus was effectually aplied towards me by faith in Christ, was someone NOT part of the family of God, and needed to be saved to become in this sense "one of His own"

God has the eternal results of the Cross to get applied effectually towards those Whom he desired to save, but thru faith is the means he has ordained that grace shall get applied!

And that would be the Calvinism of a Spurgeon, but don't know if it meets the standards of those in a more hyper class!

 

I am one, who holds that before receiving jesus thru and by faith, though was atoned for by His death, was not actually saved and made renew in him until reborn from above at time of faith in Him!

I was once lost, was a sinner by birth and choice, had no part on his kingdom, no hope, but thru the Cross and His provision to save me in it, was found and saved!

As i suspect ALL of us here were!

 

I have no one particular in mind, but it is possible to have one's faith aimed at a fictitious notion of election, and not aimed at Christ Himself. So not everyone may share that acute awareness of being totally void of hope before coming to a knowledge of the truth

 

you have become unhinged...all sheep were children of wrath before God saved them...but while lost they were still given to the son.....no where does it say we were goats.

 

Gonna hafta disagree with you here, Brother. We were always His sheep, but we were sheep having gone astray, we were Shepherless, we were rebellious. God sent our Shepherd to herd us back into the fold, by dying for us, His sheep. We were always, and forever will be, His sheep.

 

I don't think I would say that sin is a substance, per se. Sin is a behavioral issue, a thought issue, and rebellion issue, for sure. But sin is also a disease. Why do you think Jesus came healing, and equated being healed with being forgiven? Also, by His stripes we are healed.

Scripture portrays sin as a disease from which we need to be healed. Washed, cleansed, purified, are all pictures of removing a substance. But that also might be as close as God could get to our futile understanding. Can you put disease and infection in a box? I don't have the foggiest idea about that.

I agree that our makeup is complex, so is the issue of sin

Being born again is a matter of both spirit and body - palingenesia - Titus 3:5 the washing of regeneration, referring to our spirit. Matt 19:28-29 "in the regeneration" is when Christ returns, which is when we will be raised physically.

Psalm 51:5 says that David was brought forth in iniquity and conceived in sin, What part of a baby is conceived? The body. He's in the midst of confessing his sinfulness of actions based on something he saw with his eyes

Psalm 139:13-16 says David was fearfully and wonderfully made. Where? In his mother's womb. How do these two scriptures jibe? Simple

The physical body is conceived in corruption, coming from Adam.

But God breathes into this corrupted flesh a sinless spirit. David is speaking of his unformed substance - his spirit (verse 16)

But, as Isaiah said, we all, like sheep, have gone astray. Paul said in Romans 1:18-25 that they knew God, but acknowledged him no longer. Professing to be wise, they became fools. The exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image. They became futile in their speculations.

Verses 24 & 26 tell us the result of this exchange - God gave them over to a reprobate mind. This exchange happens when a child grown into adulthood and goes his OWN way and becomes sinful in his spirit - just like Adam and Eve did. And we can see this every single day.

There comes a time in each person's life that he no longer considers right and wrong from an outward perspective. No longer are mom and dad going to tell me what to do. No longer does God determine what is right and wrong, I will.

This is what Adam and Eve experienced - they ate the fruit, which gave them knowledge of good and evil, and that is what corrupted them. God gave them over to a reprobate mind

I don't believe your view can be substantiated in scripture. Hence, no scriptures quoted

Jesus had no earthly father because He is the SON (heir) of God. He received no inheritance form and earthly father, His inheritance comes form God. He did receive a corrupted physical body, just like us. He was made like us in all things (Heb 2:14, Rom 8:3).

A sinless Spirit, inside a corrupted tent

Romans 5 is speaking of physical death only. Compare what Paul wrote there, to what he wrote in 1Cor 15 - in Adam all die, in Christ all will be made alive

Why do you think there is a ring of universalism in Romans 5:18-19? Because physical death and physical resurrection are universal. Every person ever born will die (except those who will be changed at Christ's appearing). Every person who has ever died physically will be raised (John 5:28-29)

 

Sin is a SPIRITUAL issue first and foremost as it is the spirit of man that needs new birth and cleansing from sin. Sin as a spiritual issue proceeds form the "spirit" of man to the body of man. Adam died in the "day" he ate, he did not die physically but spiritually. Hence, sin is first a "spiritual" issue, then a physical problem. However, your view of sin arises from the material to the spirit.

Your whole position depends on a complete reversal of this Biblical order. Your position is wrong.

 

Are we already saved too before the world began? Already glorified too? All ready justified too, all ready called too?

We are NONE of these things in time or realty until they occur in time and reality. We are sheep only by purpose, not by nature until we are born again.

Read Isaiah 46:10 and take notice that God explicitly stated that His purpose must yet be fufilled by his power. None of you have an answer for this text, you just ignore it:

Isa. 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Please take note what he says he has already "purposed" what he has already "spoken" that is already acording to his "counsel" IS NOT YET DONE. He does not say "I HAVE done it." He does not say it is already fulfilled.

Your theory is simply unbiblical and wrong and provides the basis for many false doctrines.

 

Not to just tbe contrary but it is my view that you are just over thinking this.

 

Ezekiel 34 poigntantly shows us as being His sheep....

 

Isn't this whole concept of us being sheep before getting saved really tied into the view of eternal regeneration of the elect in Christ?

 

The Biblicist

It was already done in the mind of God.

.
you do not understand the Covenant of redemption

No one ignores these verses...we like them:thumbsup:

.

Your misunderstanding leads you to say this.