OSAS: Should it be taught?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Gina B, Oct 26, 2002.

  1. Gina B

    Gina B
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    I believe in OSAS, but is it dangerous to teach and preach it like it is in most churches?
    There are people out there who think they're saved. They're not. If they hear someone up in the pulpit that once you believe in Jesus that's it, don't worry it, maybe they'll not be motivated to examine if they truly believe.
    Is it something that maybe should be taught later, or dealt with only when asked personally?
    Chrys
     
  2. Scott J

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    I don't believe it is wise to teach osas without teaching the rest of the story. Romans 8 says that those who are called will be conformed to the image of Christ.

    I believe that if God does not work to sanctify someone who made a profession then they probably weren't saved to start with.
     
  3. Scott_Bushey

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    Scott,

    Calvinists ascribe to the teaching of the parable of the sower. This parable shows the different kinds of soil. The person you mention in your post was obviously someone whom seed fell upon "erroneous" soil.

    The OSAS doctrine of the reformed is foundated in Gods sovereignty, His elective decree, His promise to Christ and His elect.

    John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    *Having said this, I must also state though, that scripture calls for the believer to "work out thy salvation w/ fear and trembling, and in another place, ".......unless ye fall away".

    The promise is there......the warning is there!

    [ October 27, 2002, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]
     
  4. Helen

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    The problem is not with the teaching that one cannot lose one's salvation (which is true -- one cannot lose it), but with the teaching of 'easy believism'. We should never shortchange the truth, and part of the truth is that once you belong to Jesus, that's it. He doesn't give you up and will go 'find' you (He knew where you were all along... [​IMG] ) if you stray, and discipline you if you act like a spoiled brat wanting your own way!

    But the other part of the truth is that one cannot simply repeat a 'sinner's prayer' or sign a statement and somehow be 'saved.' You must be horrified at the state of your own sin and degradation, or at least as much of it as you can comprehend, and cast yourself on the Lord's mercy through Jesus Christ. That is what 'believing' means, not just intellectual acknowledgement. Jesus Christ came to SAVE, and if a person is only looking for fire insurance from hell, he should be told clearly that Jesus is NOT an insurance broker!

    Salvation is a matter of being willing to be put to death where self is concerned and then raised a new person spiritually with a new heart.

    Unlike the Calvinists, I firmly believe the Bible teaches that you can say 'no' to this and refuse Christ, but you can also say 'yes' and Christ will do the work to change you and you will be truly born again. And, for the person who is born again, the old nature is gone -- destroyed -- and there is no way to get it back. Therefore those who are His do not WANT to leave, even when they get silly and wander, they still want the Lord. And He will retrieve them.

    In both states, sin and salvation, we are slaves. That does not mean we are blind to the other side, but it also does not mean we can just walk away. Christ has to take us out of the one and put us in the other. That is what is meant by 'redemption' -- a purchase. We cannot purchase ourselves or remove ourselves. Tht is why the 'easy believism' is such a lie.

    But if you belong to Christ, then you belong to Christ, and that's that!
     
  5. Jim1999

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    Confessedly, I have never used the term, "once saved; always saved."

    We teach the doctrine, Perseverance of the saints, which is the human side of the divine process of sanctification.

    God will cause us to persevere in holiness unto final salvation in Jesus, the Christ. With A.H. Strong, I agree: "It is not a mere natural consequence of conversion, but involves a constant activity of the human will from the moment of conversion to the end of life." Systematic Theology, p. 881.

    In this sense, and in this sense alone, we are once saved; always saved, but it is all of God. To deny perseverance, we must deny election, union with Christ, regeneration, justification and sanctification.

    This is, and has been, the Reformed viewpoint from the very beginning. God will so influence all believers that they will freely persevere.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  6. tyndale1946

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    I am SemiCalvinist as far as OSAS and believe that Christ will save ALL his children. Adam took of the forbidden fruit and ate it knowing full well what the penalty of eating it was.

    Notice when Adam and Eve were driven out of the garden... That God placed cherubims and a flaming sword that turned every which way protecting the tree of life. If man could at anytime reach forth and grab on to eternal life why the flaming sword?

    If he could believe in Jesus and make that belief that, that purchases his eternal life why doesn't he?... The plain fact is he is dead... Body... Soul... And Spirit... Corrupt beyond his own redemption. Read Ephesians 2 and see it is all of grace... Not your grace but the grace given you.

    When you are brought to the realization of your salvation then you have a salvation you can work out while serving God and his Son the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the world. That's why I claim I am an Arminian as far as fellowship and discipleship is concerned. Why would God trust us with our own eternal salvation... Mine is in the hands of the Lamb of God... You want to put it in your own hands be my guest... I'm OSAS and there was a reason for the second man Adam because the first man Adam couldn't keep what he gave him the first time!... Now he gives his kindred a chance to accept or reject his eternal salvation?... Sorry brethren I don't believe that!... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ October 27, 2002, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  7. Gina B

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    Jim, I've never really heard anyone plainly describe and discuss P.
    Feel free to keep going about it, lol. I don't think most people understand what it truly means, and inquiring minds want to know. [​IMG]
    Gina
     
  8. Helen

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    Personally, I cannot tell you how many times I have NOT persevered! I have been exhausted, angry, frustrated, in pain -- you name it. And at those times, if it were not for Christ holding on to me, I would never have made it.

    I am not aware of ANY sheep who can persevere on its own. Sheep are the most helpless of animals. And, at least for me, that is a very apt description. It is Christ who perseveres with me and keeps me going and encourages me and gives me the strength.

    I honestly do not see a 'human side' of perseverence, Jim. I see, on the human side, wandering, doubts, weakness, stubbornness.... I'm sure anyone could keep the list going.

    OK, like a sheep, I can persevere at eating... :D
     
  9. Ps104_33

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    Martin Luther once said, Once a person is saved he couldnt get to hell if he tried.

    This leads to another discussion. Do you believe there is going to be some kind of hierarchy in heaven, depending on how well or with what motives a believer served Christ down here on earth?
     
  10. Gina B

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    Yes, I believe in some sort of hierarchy, but not in the sense that one will be "better" than another person.
    I don't believe in the concept of being materially rewarded. The treasures in heaven seem to be US, we are God's treasures.
    Gina
     
  11. Deekay

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    Mnay Calvinists use "Preservation of the Saints" instead of "Perseverence" because this more accurately describes what happens (and it maintains the TULIP mnemonic). God preserves me; it is not my persevering that keeps me in His hands.

    [ October 27, 2002, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: Deekay ]
     
  12. donnA

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    If you believe it, then is it being dishonest to teach something else?
     
  13. JIMNSC

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    Gina - Was this sorta what you were saying?

    Using the parable of the talents:

    The one who doubled two talents got the same reward that the one who doubled five did (Mat. 25:20-23).

    Laborers hired to work in the vineyard:

    Got the same pay regardless of hours worked (Mat. 20).
     
  14. Gina B

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    No. I was discussing it with a friend, and how churches generally contain a lot of unsaved people (usually even purposely)
    The concern was that teaching it generally, as in a church service where many churches generally BRING IN unsaved people, might lead people to falsely feel they are saved when they are not, just because they believed in Jesus at one point in time.
    Coupled with the problem of true belief not being properly defined in a lot of churches, it seems like it could be dangerous.
    Gina
     
  15. Dr. Bob

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    The role of a church service is NEVER designed (biblically) to be a soul-saving station for a host of unsaved. It was/is designed to be a place of teaching and fellowship for believers who then will go out to fulfill the commission to evangelize.

    I get frustrated singing "when we all get to heaven" or praying "the Lord's prayer" knowing that there are unsaved people there who are NOT going to heaven or whose "father" is Satan.

    Of course, that does NOT stop mean from preaching eternal security, but with great emphasis that it is FOR THE BELIEVER only.
     
  16. massdak

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    helen says this&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;But the other part of the truth is that one cannot simply repeat a 'sinner's prayer' or sign a statement and somehow be 'saved.' You must be horrified at the state of your own sin and degradation, or at least as much of it as you can comprehend, and cast yourself on the Lord's mercy through Jesus Christ. That is what 'believing' means, not just intellectual acknowledgement. Jesus Christ came to SAVE, and if a person is only looking for fire insurance from hell, he should be told clearly that Jesus is NOT an insurance broker! &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;


    i strongly disagree with you helen, your focus seems to be on ones own ability to feel abhorrence for sin , how would you determine how much regret you would need to feel the full repentance effect, your premise sounds like believe and do penance.
    those who know they need a savior and believe on Christ is not easy believeism. resting on Christ depending on Him is what a sinner that is without strength needs.
    salvation is of the Lord, not man. you would do well to read how the apostle paul and calvinist view depravity. fire insurance you say? sinners need it.
    i also believe those who accept Christ thinking they have to work to stay saved have made grace to no effect, and they would die in their sin.
     
  17. Helen

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    Although I disagree strongly with Calvinism interpretations, I disagree just as strongly with the idea of the gaining or maintenance of salvation by works. But I also know that God does present to the unregenerate, and perhaps several times, an unveiled look at his own decrepit heart. It is a real shock, for that split second, to be stripped of pretenses and excuses, but it happens -- and probably to everyone at some time or another.

    A person has a choice regarding how to react (and reacting is NOT a work, please!). He can sort of spiritually 'throw up' in disgust, or he can make excuses for it, such as "I'm not as bad as x," or "Considering my past..." or "On the whole, the good I do outweighs the bad..."

    Those that take that look at themselves and accept the honesty of it then have one more choice: what are you going to do with Jesus Christ? Most people who are upset with the state of themselves try to improve themselves, via TM, or religion, or education, or power, or whatever. The ways the world has to offer seem endless. All the religions except Christianity have ways a man can take the burden of himself and 'improve' or 'exalt' or 'realize' (choose the verb you like) himself.

    But some people answer the call of Christ (remember, many are called, but few are chosen), with only despair and submission. Nothing to offer, nothing they can do, only saying in one way or another, "If you still want me..."

    And He turns away none of these.

    But Jesus said clearly that those who are healthy (which would be a faulty self-diagnosis) do not need a doctor. Those who make excuses for themselves will never want change. And those who think that even though they are crud, they can change themselves or improve themselves will never want Christ.

    We are free to want, but absolutely helpless to do anything about it where salvation is concerned. Please don't misunderstand what I am saying. But unless a person sees and accepts the gravity of his heart's situation, he will not want to change and will not want Christ. And of those who accept the fact that they are far from what they want to be, only a few respond to Christ's call affirmatively.

    Accepting or rejecting what God shows you about your own heart and life, and accepting or rejecting the call of Christ -- these are not works. Agreeing or disagreeing are not works.

    But someone who does not agree that he needs changing won't accept change. Repentance means seeing what you don't like in yourself and wanting to change. It means you are agreeing with God about the state of your being.

    Don't confuse agreement with the ability to do anything about what you agree with or to. We can't do anything for ourselves, but we do have the choice regarding whether or not to accept or reject our natural selves and then whether to accept or reject Christ.

    [ October 30, 2002, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: Helen ]
     
  18. massdak

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    Dr. bob &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;The role of a church service is NEVER designed (biblically) to be a soul-saving station for a host of unsaved. It was/is designed to be a place of teaching and fellowship for believers who then will go out to fulfill the commission to evangelize.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

    hello dr. bob
    i believe that my doctrine maybe closer to reformed baptist. i agree with you statement above. also do you have any opinions on the altar call?
    as far as osas the bible says we are sealed.
     

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