Featured Osas?

Apostle paul made it clear in Acts that while under old Covenant, God "overlooked" transgression commited, as he knew that messiah was to come, and he used that coming atonement to be able to "cover" those past sins done, but NOW commanded to have people repent and believe in messiah jesus who had come and done His work to atone!

ANY ever saved was due to grace of God that use from the Cross of Chrsit on behalf of sinners such as us!

Acts 17:30
30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

 

I have no problem sticking with the term "justified" but are you saying that the scriptural use of the term "saved" is inclusive of "justified" in scripture and is therefore scripturally wrong to speak of past tense justification "justified" as having been "saved" by the blood of Christ????? If the Biblical writers use the term "saved" and "justified" as synonyms why is it wrong for Bible believers to do the same thing? We are "saved through faith" and we are "justified by faith" and both refer to the provision of Jesus Christ as the basis.

I am not disputing that Israel as a nation was cut off because of unbelief in Christ as their Messiah. I am disputing that those who were cut off were saved prior to being cut off! I am disputing that being a Jew is equal to being a true child of God. True children of God whether Jew or Gentile is not a matter of race or genetical privilege but new birth and faith in Christ (Jn. 3:3-6; 16) and it was not true children of God that were cut off but lost unregenerated non-believing Jews.

You said that those Jews who were cut off in Romans 11 were saved persons when in fact they were not saved persons but the NATION of Israel as a whole consisting of unregenerated Christ hating Jews. Hebrews 4:2 proves that merely being a jew does not make one a true child of God but Jews are only saved the same way that Gentiles are saved through faith in Christ presented by the gospel of Christ and that is precisely what Hebrews 4:2 demonstrates. Acts 10:43 and Acts 26;22-23 prove the same gospel preached "unto us was also preached unto them" (Heb. 4:2) and therefore those cut off in Romans 11 were not saved people but Lost PROFESSING PEOPLE OF GOD - the Jewish nation as a whole.

However, "ALL THE PROPHETS" did preach the gospel of Christ from Genesis to Matthew and Peter says so in Acts 10:43. Paul says so in Acts 26:22-23 and Heb. 4:2 and Galatians 3:6-8.

No human being EVER DID become the people of God by the law and Paul says so in Acts 13:39. Paul denies that any human at any time was ever received before God as His people through the law - Romans 3:9,19-20 and that salvation/justification was always through faith in Christ (Rom. 3:24-28) and the law NEVER justified anyone, NEVER provided eternal life to anyone (Gal. 3:21) but always CONDEMNED every human being who ever attempted to come to God through the Law (Rom. 3:19-20).

They were not called the people of God because they became people of God by keeping the law. They were called the people of God simply because God chosen them as a NATION above all other nations to reveal His law, gospel and ordinances to (Deut. 7:5; 9:4-5).

I am not deny that but affirming that. What I am denying is being "called God's people" does not make them individually saved as you admit "even the ones who did not have faith." It was those "who did not have faith" in the gospel (Heb. 4:2) that were "cut off" in Romans 11 - the false people of God- the unbelieving people of God - the unregenerated professed people of God.

You are the one that said those who were cut off had been saved people not I! Shall I quote your own words? Here they are:

Jews who did not believe in Jesus WERE CUT OFF. This cutting off shows that they were saved.

In the first sentence you admit those who were cut off did not believe in Jesus but in the second sentence you claim the same ones that were cut off "were saved"!

The only thing I can draw from this is that you believe even though they did not believe in Jesus they had been saved previous to rejecting Christ and you base this completely upon the fact that ALL Jews are called "the people of God" and their previous salvation was through the law not through faith in Christ. The Bible flatly denies that ANY JEW can be saved apart from faith in Christ and to reject Christ means you NEVER WERE A TRUE CHILD OF GOD.

SAVED Jews prior to the coming of Christ were saved by believing in Christ who would come (Acts 10:43). Saved Jews at the coming of Christ believed in Christ as preached in the gospel (Jn. 3:16) and those who rejected him NEVER WERE BELIEVERS as John says in John 3:36 but were still "under the wrath of God" and still in unbelief (Jn. 3:17-18).

Hence, those "cut off" in Romans 11 were never saved, never were beleivers because saved Jews do not reject Christ or they cannot be saved in the first place (Heb. 4:2).

They were cutt off from the promises and privileges that God formerly had given only to the Jewish nation but now has grafted the Gentiles into this POSITION of privilege and promises described formerly by Paul in Romans 9:5.

To be natural born into such privileges and promises does not mean they are saved (Rom. 9:5-11; Jn. 1:13) but they are blessed with the house of God and it ordinances and God calling out a people especially from them as the professed people of God. Israel as a nation has been cut off from those privileges defined and stated in Romans 9:5 and the Gentile nations have been grafted into that POSITION of privileges. However, this POSITION is not equal to personal salvation.

 

Acts 17 has reference to pagans not the Jews under the Law.

Furthermore, Romans 3:25-26 explains how God dealt with the sins of those in the past who believed in the coming Christ.

Hebrews 10:1-4 denies that the blood of sacrifices EVER took a way sin literally.

Acts 10:43/Heb. 4:2 and mutlitudes of others scriptures teach those prior to the cross were saved identically as we are now, except they looked forward by faith to the cross and we look back, but the same gospel, same Christ, same salvation, same justification, same regeneration (Jn. 3:9) and same hope of resurrection.

The Law NEVER removed sin, justified, obtained life, saved, or any other salvic application but merely revealed sin, revealed the gospel in its ceremonial ordinances and point them to Christ for salvation .

 

Even if someone could lose their salvation(I, for one, do not believe this), why would they even want to be lost again? I never knew what life really was until God saved me.

 

Romans 11 deals with Israel as a nation and is introduced that way:

Rom. 10:1 ¶ Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Rom. 11:1 ¶ I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom. 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel,

Verse 25 proves it is "ISRAEL" as a whole or as a nation that has been "blinded" in the previous verses and thus Isreal cut off. While only a remanant of Israel have not been cut off.

So, you believe that merely being a Jew under the old Covenant makes you "the people of God" in the spiritual sense rather than in merely a national ethnic choice sense?? So just being natural born as a Jew makes uyou a CHILD of God in the spiritual sense????? Is that what you believe? You do not believe Jews must be born again even before the cross as John 3:3-9 is a command to a Jew BEFORE the cross! Jesus rebukes Nicodemus for not already understanding the doctrine of new birth - "Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?" - Jn. 3:10

So there are no lost people among the Jews because all the Jews are "the people of God" in a spiritual sense???????????

You have already admitted those who were cut off were UNBELIEVERS IN CHRIST! Do you believe that you can even be the "people of God" in the SPIRITUAL sense (children by Holy Spirit new birth) and not believe in Christ? Hebrews 4:2 rejects the idea that any Jew can be called the "people of God" in a SPIRITUAL sense apart from belief in the gospel! Those mentioned in Hebrews 4:2 were living at the time of Moses (Heb. 3) and there were among them unbelievers in the gospel of Christ and believers as the same gospel was preached "unto them" as well as "unto us" - Heb. 4:2

I am repeating myself because you are failing to understand what I am saying. Repetition is the best teacher - "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:"

 

Agreed, as used that reference to point out that God was able to save/redeem those "under the law" by not that, but thru application of the coming merits of the messiah who was prdained to come in the future and provide atonement for His people!

God "back grace applied" the effectual grace of the Cross to their accounts!

 

Agreed!:thumbsup::applause:

 

My 90-year old mom gave the best defense of OSAS I've ever heard. When I asked her if she thought that as a born-again believer you could reject your salvation and turn away permanently, she said, "You could, but you won't"!

 

The Context is dealing with a GENTILE believer - a Centurian - and Jesus is proclaiming that among the Jews he has not found any Jew with a much faith as this Gentile Centurian:

10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

This Gentile is representative of true believers that Jesus says will come from "the east and west" (outside of Israel) and shall enter into the future kingdom with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob

The Jews considered themselves ALONE to be the "children" of Abraham and heirs of the kingdom.

John 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free.....39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

However, Romans 9:6-8 demonstrates that not all Israel is of Israel and not all are SPRITIUAL children or true believers

For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Just previous to Matthew 8:12 Jesus had given the sermon on the Mount wherein he distinguished the true spiritual children of the Kingdom by the "blessed" characteristics (Mt. 5:2-12) in contrast to the professing but false Jewish children of the kingdom. Mt. 13 also distinguishes between the true and the false (tares) in the present professing kingdom who will be gathered and cast out of the coming future kingdom.

Jesus was simply addressing them according to how they perceived themselves not how God perceived them. They claimed they were the children of Abraham BY NATURAL BIRTH and did not need to be saved or born again. Your quote from Luke 13:28 is parallel and refers to the same kind of Jews - the false professing children of the kingdom as Luke 13:27 proves:

27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Jesus addresses them according to how they perceive themselves but in context denies they are true children of the kingdom and will be in the future kingdom. These are lost Jews that NEVER WERE SAVED in the first place.

The born again Spirit indwelt man can genuinely say "it is no longer I that do it but sin that dwelleth in me" in regard to pin pointing the origin of sin from within the whole of the human nature but rather "I delight in the law of God AFTER THE INWARD MAN." The issue of sin by a child of God is a matter of POWER struggle within the child of God between that aspect of his nature which has been BORN AGAIN or CREATED in true holiness and righteousness or the new inward man VERSUS what has not been born again "this body of death". Indwelling sin always wins this power of struggle:

for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. - Rom. 7:18b

Only by yeilding to the POWER of the indwellling Spirit of God is the redeemed child of God enable to win this inward POWER struggle between the "inward man" created in true holiness and righteousness and the outward man "the flesh" unredeemed and destined to death. However, the good news is that Christ has already won the war in our behalf regardless of the skirmishes we lose or win ourselves and the Holy Spirit will never leave us or forsake us and even uses the losses to work ultimately for our good (Rom. 8:28) especially in development of our spiritual growth and character in progressively conforming us to the image of Christ.

 

Jesus is addressing true children of God and their designed influence before men. They are lights and they are salt. However, a light that is hid loses its influence and salt that has lost its saltiness is "moronic" (Literal Greek term translated "loses its saltiness").

By design they are for the purpose to glorify God "before men" however, if they profess one thing but do another they are regarded by the very ones they are to influence as "moronic" and instead of being a witness to "men" they will be "trampled by men" or regarded hypocrits "by men" and their designed value becomes invalidated.

This has nothing to do about saved and lost but with accomplishing their intended design before men or their practical value to be witnesses before men. Lot is a good example of a child of God that lost his saltiness, so that his own children no longer regarded his witness nor did the men of Sodom. Yet Peter says he was still a saved person.

 

I can see the wisdom in her response. She was not denying the ability to choose but denied that true children of God would ever make such a choice.

There are things that accompany salvation that confirm what she said. God creates the believer "in Christ" and this creative works is characterized by an inward man that is created in TRUE HOLINESS and RIGHTEOUSNESS (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10; Tit. 3:5) and this new created inward man is inseparably part of the child of God in spiritual union withe Indwelling Spirit of God. This aspect of the child of God cannot choose sin because it has no capacity to choose sin simply because it is created in TRUE HOLINESS and RIGHTEOUSENESS and its "delight" is in "the law of God" and this is the divine "seed" implanted in every child of God that "cannot sin" (1 Jn. 3:9).

In addition, God the Holy Spirit indwells within the child of God and exercises influence over the human will so that Paul could say "For it is God that WORKETH IN YOU both to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure."

Hence, there is this TWO FOLD UNION neither of which is capable of sinning, as the Holy Spirit will never work in you both to WILL and to Do sin and neither can this inward man CREATED after the image of God will or do sin.

Both to WILL and to DO sin must come from some other aspect of the nature of the child of God and that is "the flesh" according to Paul which NEVER can choose anthying other to WILL and to DO sin because it is NEVER redeemed but is under the reign of death and MUST succumb to death "This body OF DEATH." (Rom. 7:18-25).

Hence, the flesh will never choose anything other than to sin while the newly created inward man in union with the Spirit of God will never choose anything else but "good." If indwelling sin has the POWER to overule the inward man then sin is the outcome. However, if the inward man is EMPOWERED by the indwelling Spirit then the body is quicked and the deeds of the flesh are mortified and the outcome is the manifest life of Christ through the believer. Since, the Holy Spirit will never leave or forsake the child of God and since that which is created in true righteousness and holiness never will choose to sin, then, ultimate victory is assured and the willingness to sin is confined and restricted only to that unredeemed aspect of human nature so that Paul can say "It is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Hence, the redeemed man always sins MORE THAN HE WANTS TO and due to failing to yeild to the POWER of the Indwelling Spirit of God.

Therefore your grandmother is right.