OT Law Part II

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by canadyjd, Sep 26, 2010.

  1. canadyjd

    canadyjd
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    Another poster wrote this in the first thread:
    The question... When John writes in 1 John 2:4:

    "The one who says, 'I have come to know Him', and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the the truth is not in him."

    Is John telling us to keep the O.T. Law? Or is John speaking of keeping the commandments of Jesus Christ, specifically the commandment to love one another? Is there any difference?

    If John is telling us to keep the O.T. Law, does that just mean the moral laws (not ceremonial laws)?

    If John is telling us to keep the O.T. moral laws, does that mean we should punish people who break those laws according to the instructions given to Moses.... and if we don't, does that make us "liars" who don't love Jesus?

    peace to you:praying:
     
  2. HankD

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    We are led of the Spirit and live by faith, we are not under the Law.

    The Holy Spirit has never led me into sin, I do that on my own when I wander from His leading and follow the inclinations of my flesh.

    Then this comes next:

    Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

    HankD
     
  3. Peggy

    Peggy
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    We are not bound under the 613 OT ceremonial laws, but we are morally bound to obey the 10 Commandments out of love for God.

    Jesus said "I give you a new commandment. Love one another". He also said that love of God and love of neighbor is the fulfillment of the Law. The 10 Commandments are specific ways that we are told to love God and love one another. Now we should not obey in a spirit of legalism, but of a spirit of freedom in Christ. He sets us free to love.
     
  4. HankD

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    Very good point Peggy. Thanks.

    HankD
     
  5. canadyjd

    canadyjd
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    I agree. Yet, John tells us that if we know Jesus, we will keep His commandments.

    Does that mean keep the O.T. Law concerning morality?

    Does that mean punishing those who break those laws according to the commandments of God given to Moses?

    peace to you:praying:
     
  6. canadyjd

    canadyjd
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    Do you believe John is speaking of the 10 commandments when he says that if you "know" Jesus, you will obey His commandments?

    In obeying the 10 commandments, should we implement the punishments for disobeying one/any/all of the commandments as prescribed in the Law given to Moses?

    If not, then are we guilty of removing elements of God's Word (i.e. the instructions for punishments)?
    Agreed. The attitude of our hearts is vital to proper obedience to our Lord's commands.

    In setting us free to love, did Christ release us from the responsibility of implementing the prescribed punishments for disobeying His commandments?

    peace to you:praying:
     
  7. freeatlast

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    John is speaking of all the moral commands and the NT ceremonial commands (baptism and Lord's table). And yes we should seek to set up our governmental laws in accord with God's standards. Bt the way we once did that in this nation. Also you are correct if we do not keep the commandments according to scripture we do not love the Lord and we are not saved.
     
  8. freeatlast

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    He leads and rebukes based the law and commands.
     
  9. canadyjd

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    So, if we don't stone adulterers, homose*uals, children who strike their parents, etc..., to death when we find them, we don't love the Lord and are not saved? Is that what you believe?

    peace to you:praying:
     
  10. freeatlast

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    My friend I did not write the bible. I am only saying what it says. I realize that in today's world and even the church the word of God is not popular, but we know that this has to happen. As far as setting legal punishment for those who violate the law I feel that we would be a better country if we did so, but those are not included in the personal moral commands of God. As to the question can a person be saved and practice in the violating the moral personal commands of God the answer is no according to scripture.
    Let ma ask you a question. Do you agree with God in His giving the death penalty for the things you mentioned?
     
  11. HankD

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    Acts Chapter 15 abolishes the law for those under the New Covenant.
    Yet, we are not lawless, we are guided by the law of love.

    1 Corinthians 13
    4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
    5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
    6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
    7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

    Brethren if we need the law to guide us then we have departed from the leading of the Holy Spirit and we are under the law and not living by faith.

    1 Timothy 1
    9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
    10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

    HankD​
     
  12. freeatlast

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    Acts Chapter 15 abolishes the law for those under the New Covenant.

    Not according to the Lord;
    Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
    For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    All has not been fulfilled. There is much more to come. Based on your assessment Paul was incorrect to state the law;
    Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
    We are not to lie. The fact that we are not under the law only means that the law has no power over us. The laws power was and is death. We are no longer subject to that. We now have life in Christ which the law cannot over come. I suggest that you try and teach a child to love without stating do's and don'ts and I promise that you will raise a criminal.
     
  13. HankD

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    freeatlast, please explain Acts 15.

    Thanks
    HankD
     
  14. freeatlast

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    That passage is dealing with how to get saved. Actually combating a false teaching on salvation. Not how we ought to walk after salvation which is what the OP was about. The law of God is still the law. God has not changed and neither has His law. He has not changed His mind as to what is sin or not. We who have come to know Him are to set our hearts on Him and His leading. He uses the written word to tell us His standards. I hear this silly claim all the time where someone will say that they do not follow or need the law. They walk by the Spirit. However I can tell you that if you presented the gospel to someone in some secluded place and never gave him God's commands and went off and left them they would never change outwardly. The Spirit uses the word (written law) to convict and lead.
    While the law has no power over us we are obliged to obey it. Actually if we are not scripture says we are not saved. So going around spouting love and having no guidlines for that love only is Antinomianism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinomianism and not biblical teaching.
     
    #14 freeatlast, Sep 30, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 30, 2010
  15. HankD

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    Do you keep the Sabbath the seventh day? if you are a male are you circumcised? Do you keep a Kosher kitchen?

    How much or how little of the Law do you keep?

    Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

    Your love of God your Father infused in your being by your birth from the Holy Spirit should keep you from sinning not the Law of Moses.​

    John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.​

    HankD​
     
  16. HankD

    HankD
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    What did Paul say about this to the Galatians?

    Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
    2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?​

    freeatlast, we need to take our doctrine from the Bible not Wikipedia.

    At least put your definition of antinomianism in your own words with Scripture to support it.

    HankD
     
  17. canadyjd

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    So, you are saying the punishments for violating the moral commands found in God's Word are not applicable? Is that what you are saying? Are the commands the Word of God, but the punishments are not the Word of God? Why would you take away from the Word of God?
    I haven't asked such a question.

    The question I asked dealt with your assertion that if a person doesn't keep all the O.T. Laws, they are not saved and don't love Jesus. I believe your statement is outrageous and demonstrates considerable ignorance of scripture, the purpose of the O.T. Law, and the concepts of grace and mercy.

    However, I see now you are backpeddling. You are now saying the commands are applicable, but the punishments for violating the commands are not applicable.
    It is simply unseemly for you to ask me such a question or for me to answer. I am a worm, whether I "agree with God" makes no difference whatsoever.

    God is always righteous and good and perfect in every judgement and every command, including His command to Christians in I Tim. 1:16 which appears to be a command that you don't want to keep at all.

    I understand the context in which God gave those laws to the Hebrew people 3,500 years ago. I also understand that scripture is very clear that we are no longer under those laws.

    I also understand, and scripture is very clear from I Tim. 1:16, that Christians are to have an attitude of perfect patience and mercy toward the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul. Support for the death penalty is contrary to that command from our Lord.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  18. canadyjd

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    Amen, brother, amen.
    Again, "...the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient..." (emphasis mine, not yelling)


    Exactly right, brother! This is a perfect passage to answer the charge that if you don't keep the O.T. Laws you are unsaved and don't love Jesus!

    peace to you:praying:
     
  19. dwmoeller1

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    The main problem with the OT law is that it is wholly insufficient for the NT believer. It was a good law, but was only a shadow of the reality that was to come.

    So, the OT law says worship every 7th day. The NT imperative is to worship every day.
    The OT law says don't commit adultery. The NT says don't lust.
    OT says certain foods are holy. NT says that all foods are holy.
    OT law requires one to be clean on the outside. The NT law requires one to be clean on the inside.
    OT says don't kill. NT says don't hate.
    OT says to show love to your family and race. NT says to show love to everyone, even your enemy.
    Etc. etc.

    In each case, the OT law is good, but insufficient. It is merely a shadow on the reality. So for the NT believer to look to the OT law is to look to the shadow instead of the reality - the insufficient instead of the complete. To look to the OT law is to fall short of the reality. Its not that those who reject the OT law are antinomian, instead its that they look to a much higher standard - one of the heart instead of the outward actions.

    And notice that by following the law of love, one fulfills the essence of the OT law as well. The mistake is to see the OT law as the model which Christ simply built upon and added to. Instead, the OT law met its completion in Christ. Thus it no longer applies to believers. Christ gave us a new law, a much higher law - a law that is the reality, not the shadow.

    Seek the reality, not the shadow.
     
  20. canadyjd

    canadyjd
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    Well said!:thumbsup:

    peace to you:praying:
     

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