OT Law Part II

Is the OT law done away with? No, it still remains. It still convicts of sin, it still points to Christ, it still shows the insufficiency of works to attain righteousness. BUT, the law is fulfilled. It no longer has force as a standard of conduct for believers. Not because it is abolished or done away with, but because it completed it main function. Furthermore, the law is insufficient as a standard and guide to the conduct of the believer. There were many things God allowed which weren't his ideal due to the hardness of men's hearts.

But Christ now calls us to a higher law. So its not that the OT law has been don away with or abolished - IT HAS BEEN COMPLETED! The book wasn't thrown away, it still sits on the shelf. But it has been read and the story came to "The End". Now we read from a new law - one that is much higher, one that is perfect, one that depends on the lawgiver to provide the means the fulfill the law.

Why would one look to the old incomplete and imperfect law when we have the new residing in us? It makes no sense to bind ourselves to the old when the new is so much better.

 

Furthermore, the whole argument for looking to the OT law for a standard of conduct depends on an false assumption - namely that the law can successfully be divided into "ceremonial" and "moral" aspects. Any attempt at such a division results in begging the question. If no such division exists, then the whole argument among evangelicals lacks any strength - namely since no one who looks to the OT law actually obeys it. Everyone, even SDAs cherry pick the parts that they follow or don't follow. But w/o demonstrating how one can consistently and clearly delineate between "moral" and "ceremonial" aspects of the law, such cherry picking is fallacious at best, hypocritical at worst.

So any discussion of the law must start on the most basic assumption that the OT law can be divided into "ceremonial" and "moral".

 

Indeed.

Jesus said "the least of these comandments" of which there are 613.

I would suggest to those brethren who want to keep the law
indeed, do them all!
Keep them all even the least:

e.g.

Leviticus 19:19 Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.​

No wearing of mixed fabric garments, only one kind of crop in your garden, don't keep cows and goats in the same pen, etc... only 610 to go.​

Get a Torah and even perhaps a Talmud, Mishnah, Gemara to help with the details.​

Then when you are exhausted you will know by experience what Jesus meant:​

Matthew 11
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.​

HankD​

 

I noticed that the OP of the original thread brought up the subject of rape. I thought that quite interesting. He said the penalty for rape was death. But this isn't the case. In fact, the issue of rape in the OT law is one which raises some serious difficulties for using it as a standard of conduct for the NT believer.

Under OT law, having sex with a married women was punishable by death. This was true whether it was consensual or not. The only difference is that if it could be shown that the woman was forced and if it couldn't be proven that she failed to resist, then she was off the hook. However, when an unmarried girl was raped, there was no death penalty for either party. In fact, the ultimate result of raping a girl could be that she ended up married to the rapist.

So, for me the more significant question is not whether one accepts the proscribed death penalty for rape (most men would), but whether one could support a law which has the victim marry her rapist? Or would you be willing to let the rapist of your daughter merely have to pay a monetary fine?

Now, lest one think I am seeking to discredit the OT law, I will point out that the law concerning rape is like the law concerning divorce - its a whole lot better than the common practices of the time and region. Yet there were clear deficiencies in the OT law due to the hardness of men's hearts. So, why would one hold up this law as one for Christian practice?

 

You say that there are deficiencies in the OT law, but scripture says"
But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully; Who would you suggest that we believe since scripture says God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;

 

Deficient and good are not mutually exclusive. The law was good. It was also deficient. Christ proves this when He points out that God gave laws which didn't reflect His full intent but were the result of men's hearts being hard.

So, the law was good, but it was deficient. Good, but not perfect. Good, but not complete. It was a shadow of good things to come, but it was only a shadow.

 

The law has not passed away nor is it fulfilled.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Heaven and earth have not passed away my friend so the law has not been fulfilled.

 

So? In the mean time you and I are not under the law but saved by grace through faith and serve God through the works coming out of that faith apart from the law.

Were you saved by the Law or the Spirit?

Why do you expect the Law then to take over that which the Spirit began with the birth from above?

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?​

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

The law is powerless to assist us in ceasing from sin.
It's purpose is to reveal sin, now and until heaven and earth pass away.

Subsequently, It inflames the flesh and brings wrath and a curse.

Romans 4

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all.​

Galatians 3
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​

We don't/can't serve God via the Law:

Romans 7

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.​

Galatians 5
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.​

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

After regeneration we still retain the flesh.
We retain the hog nature along with with the new spiritual lamb nature.

Feed the lamb, starve the hog and he will die (though he can be resurrected).

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.​

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Feed your spirit, stay in the word, prayer, fellowship and worship in Spirit and truth and you won't have the time or inclination to sin.

But if/when you do, only the Blood of Christ can cleanse from sin and bring practical righteousness and freedom from sin and not by turning to the law which slew you in the first place.​

John 1
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.​

John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:​

HankD​

 

I agree with all those scriptures and I also agree with the ones that says;
The law has not passed away nor is it fulfilled, which you disagreed with. I think the problem is that you do not understand the statement that we are not under the law and because of that you have to contradict other scriptures to hold to your miss-understanding.

 

OK, then freeatlast, as I said before: Go, keep the 600 plus commandments even the very least of them. See what it gets you.
A curse.

Actually you can't keep the 613 mitzvout either morally or according to the letter.

Even if you went and had your self circumcised (if you are a male) according to the letter of the law, then mikvahed (if you are a gentile) because in AD70 the temple was destroyed and God Himself put an end to biblical judaism.

There are elements of the Law which require that which is now impossible to do until Jesus Christ the Messiah of Israel returns and fulfills everything promised to Israel.

Levitcus 6

12 And the fire upon the altar shall be burning in it; it shall not be put out: and the priest shall burn wood on it every morning, and lay the burnt offering in order upon it; and he shall burn thereon the fat of the peace offerings.
13 The fire shall ever be burning upon the altar; it shall never go out.
14 And this is the law of the meat offering: the sons of Aaron shall offer it before the LORD, before the altar.​

This fire went out in AD70 when the Romans destroyed the Herodian Temple.

Deuteronomy 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.​

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.​

HankD​

 

Like I said before you are not understanding scripture. The law NEVER saved anyone, not even those during the OT. The passage you gave in Duet 27:26 and Gal 3:10 is still in effect today. There is but one way to God and it has always been the same grace through faith. I believe the words of the Lord and you do not.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Heaven nor earth has passed away so neither has the law. The law does today the same thing it done during the OT times. You are simply incorrect about it passing. That is the Lord's words not mine.

 

OK, then we are in agreement. It has not passed in that it still functions as it always did in terms of sin and death and will do so until we enter the eternal state.

We as those of the New Covenant are dead to the Law in Christ.
The Law has nothing to say to a dead man.

Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

HankD
​

 

1. Lets just take a look at the few verses which indicated that Christ did fulfill the law:
Christ said He came to fulfill the law:
Matt 5:17Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

So, unless one argues that He failed in His mission, we must conclude that Christ fulfilled the law. This fact is confirmed by what He says after his death:
Luke 24:44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

So, not only did Christ come to fulfill the law and prophets, Christ DID fulfill the law and the prophets. His statement in Luke 24 is that of a complete fulfillment, not of one that still remains to be completed. Paul emphasizes this fact in Col 2:14 where he says that the law was nailed to the cross.

2. More significantly, I would lay dollars to donuts that you don't take the verse in the way you suggest. Notice that it says that not one jot or title would pass. Yet, I am betting that you don't follow every jot and tittle of the law. So, if you yourself don't even believe that every jot and tittle is still in force, then this verse can't mean what you claim it means. It leaves no room for partial fulfillment, or partial abrogation. Its either still ALL in force, or its fulfilled. Since I am quite certain you don't believe it to be ALL still in force, then your use of the verse to support your assertion is inconsistent. You repeat the passage to show that the law last till heaven and earth passes, but you yourself do not observe every jot and tittle thus proving that you don't really take this verse at face value.



So, reading Matt 5:18 as "The law won't pass till heaven and earth pass." is shown to be inconsistent both with other clear verses and with your practice. How instead should it be read? If one sees vs. 18 as a double condition, then the verse remains perfectly parallel with vs 17 and consistent with other passages speaking of its fulfillment, passing or insufficiency. What do mean bye a double condition? Here is an example:

Father to son: You are going to stay in your room till you clean it all. For until your bedtime, you will not step one foot out of your bedroom, till you have cleaned it all.

In this context it becomes clear that the father is not saying that the room won't be clean until its bedtime. Instead, we understand the father to be giving two conditions. The two conditions to leaving the room are
a. bedtime arrives, or
b. the room get completely cleaned.
If *either* condition is met, then you can leave the room, but not until then.

This way of phrasing it emphasizes two things:
1. The seriousness of the command. He isn't just saying that you have to stay in your room till you clean your room, but that he is so serious about cleaning the room that if it doesn't get done, then the command will remain in effect all day long.
2. The completeness of his command. You can't come out of the room till its ALL clean. You can't clean some, take a break watching TV, then go back and clean some more. Its all or nothing.

This is how we should read vs. 18 - as a double condition emphasizing the seriousness of Christ's view of the law (the default enduring of the law is till heaven and earth pass away), and the completeness of the law (its either all in force or its totally fulfilled - no middle ground). This reading remains consistent both with vs 17 (and other verses), as well as how you actually practice the law (ie. not with every jot and tittle still in effect).