OT Saints, where did they go at death...

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by pinoybaptist, Dec 9, 2003.

  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    Some teach that OT saints went to a place called paradise, but which is not in the heaven of heavens yet, until Christ went to the cross.

    Some teach the same thing, and add that paradise was at the center of the earth, and that these were the "captives" spoken of in the Bible which Christ brought to heaven.

    Still some say that OT saints went directly to the presence of God, since Christ, being Eternal God, can also be the Lamb of Glory slain from the foundation of the world.

    Any thoughts ?
     
  2. Me2

    Me2
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    wouldnt you think that the physical birth of an OT saint is the same as the NT saint, in that we are all born with a cursed spirit in a realm of Spiritual death awaiting judgement?

    and without the "resurrected spirit of life within them".

    they should still be there awaiting judgement.
     
  3. Circuitrider

    Circuitrider
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    OT saints are redeemd through the provision of Christ according to Romans 3:25. However, their bodies are still in the grave and will not be resurrected until the second coming of Christ to the earth following the Tribulation. According to Luke 16 their spirits are in Abraham's bosom or paradise until that day. [​IMG]
     
  4. superdave

    superdave
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    You mentioned the view that they were mentioned in the phrase "led captivity captive" I have recently studied the passages that are used to support this view, so thought I would throw in a couple cents

    This view comes from a study of Ephesians 4. The phrase is seen in Verse 8

    " 8 Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." 9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)" NASB

    A couple of important truths that Paul was referring to here. The whole ascending and descending part is really an explanation of Jesus' authority over all realms, heaven, earth and hell.

    The section in Bold letters is a quote of Psalm 68:18

    " You have ascended on high, You have led captive Your captives; You have received gifts among men, Even among the rebellious also, that the LORD God may dwell there." NASB

    In case you didn't notice, there is a apparent discrepancy in the English text. Most scholars treat this as a quotation, and the discrepancy is present in all of the big 3 (KJV,NASB,NIV) with the slight exception being the NIV, where the alternate reading "received gifts for men" is in the footnotes. It is possible I guess that this could be a paraphrase, or related to the fact that Paul was quoting a Hebrew text that he translated (or someone translated) into Greek, which has since been translated into English. Strange things can occur when you do that.

    I would like to think that Paul, being the great OT scholar, and with a much more intimate knowlege of ancient Hebrew than most of us, got the quotation right. Besides the fact that given the placement of the phrase in a section on spiritual gifts being given to men from Christ, the Ephesians rendering of the phrase makes more sense.

    The phrase about leading captives in his train refers to the practice of parading the conquered army and king in the streets after a victory. The picture is that of Christ, victorious over sin and death, leading the parade. The question arises whether the captives are the OT saints, freed from their captivity to sin, or something more generic like Death and Sin that he conquered. The phrase being rather vague and pictoral in nature makes a definitive answer tough. However, This passage is used by those who teach that the spirits/souls of the OT saints were taken to heaven with Jesus at his ascension, and that the Luke passage refers to the OT saints condition during the time between their deaths and the completion of their redemption at Calvary. Their Bodies will be resurrected at a later time, and that the Paradise/Abraham's Bosom side of Hades/Sheol has been relocated to Heaven.
    [​IMG]
     

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