OT work of the Holy Spirit

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Dec 23, 2013.

  1. agedman

    agedman
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    Of old it was often taught that the Holy Spirit did not "indwell" the redeemed of the OT, rather was "upon" them as a coat.

    On this thread I would like for the scholars of the BB to consider the "position" of the Spirit of God, and offer what Isaiah said with regard to Moses:
    Isa 63:7 I will mention the loving kindnesses of the LORD, [and] the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his loving kindnesses.
    8 For he said, Surely they [are] my people, children [that] will not lie: so he was their Savior.
    9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
    10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, [and] he fought against them.
    11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, [and] his people, [saying], Where [is] he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where [is] he that put his holy Spirit within him?
    12 That led [them] by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?
    13 That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, [that] they should not stumble?
    14 As a beast goes down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.
    In verse 11, the word "within" (qereb) is used to indicate the bowels, the center, the midst, ... Just as believers today have the Holy Spirit "within" them.

    It is acknowledged that some versions render the last word of verse 11 as "them." The KJV renders it "him" and the NASB also recognizes that option also as a valid translation.

    If you take that the Holy Spirit was in the "midst" (bowels, center, within) of "them," it follows the same thinking. That the Holy Spirit was not just upon them, moving around or encamped with them; rather, that the Holy Spirit was actually "within" them.

    In consideration of how Isaiah refers to the Holy Spirit indwelling Moses (or the people), can it be that others of the redeemed were also as believers today - as the very temple of God, the Holy Spirit dwelling within them?

    During the thread, perhaps a discussion might also include the state of the redeemed were then appointed at death to "paradise" rather than "Hades" just as the thief of the crucifixion scene was appointed by Christ. That it was (as other places in the OT are given) an example of the place the redeemed of the NT upon death - no longer that OT paradise of a "holding tank keeping" but present with the Lord as He gave Paul to write to the Corinthians.

    On a personal note: I have long taken that salvation is offered only one way. That all people, of all time, are redeemed the same way. That would include the "seal" of the Holy Spirit, and therefore at death, there was no part in the Hades of the OT. A gulf being fixed between the securely safe pleasurable dwelling of paradise and that of the horrible hell (parable of Lazarus). What determined the dwelling place? The very Spirit of God - same as today.
     
    #1 agedman, Dec 23, 2013
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  2. prophet

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    Joel prophesied :
    Joel 2:28-29
    28 And it shall come to pass afterward,
    that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;
    and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
    your old men shall dream dreams,
    your young men shall see visions:
    29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids
    in those days will I pour out my spirit.
    (KJV)
    Peter explained Act 2:16-18
    16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
    (KJV)
    Only difference I see is the indwelling of more than just handpicked leaders, or special people, but now all flesh have an opportunity.
     
  3. agedman

    agedman
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    I agree, just as Christ stated that the Spirit of God is given to the whole world to accomplish a specific work.

    However, one of the concerns that the OP is attempting to sort out is the thinking that the Holy Spirit only "indwelt" the NT believers, and not the redeemed of the OT.

    I have presented in the OP the position that all believers of all ages not only are redeemed the same way, but are sealed the same way.
     
  4. beameup

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    Only the Bride of Christ is SEALED with the Holy Spirit.
     
  5. OldRegular

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    You got it right for a change; the Bride of Jesus Christ, all the redeemed of all time.
     
  6. beameup

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    "All time" meaning between the 2nd chapter of Acts and the pre-tribulation Rapture (harpázō).
    Those "saved" during the Tribulation can lose their "salvation" by taking the mark, or lose their life and be "saved".
    No doubt, the Tribulation will be the most "active" period of the Holy Spirit on the earth since creation.
     
  7. OldRegular

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    All time means all time. The Bride of Jesus Christ includes all those chosen by God before the foundation of the world to Salvation in Jesus Christ.
     
  8. Winman

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    It might be possible that Moses had the permanent indwelling Spirit, Daniel as well.

    But for most OT saints the scriptures say the Spirit came "upon them". This was not permanent, as king Saul whom the Spirit left. We know that David also prayed that the Spirit not be taken from him.

    Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

    Now, David was a prophet and wrote much scripture, if the Spirit could be taken from him this is a strong argument that the OT saints did not have the permanent indwelling Spirit.

    Another strong argument against OT saints having the permanent indwelling Spirit is John 7:39;

    Jhn 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
    38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
    39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    This scripture is quite plain that OT believers did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

    Jesus also promised his disciples that he would send the Holy Spirit to them after he rose from the dead. The Spirit dwelt with them, but in the future would be "in you".

    Jhn 1:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
    18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

    Verse 16 argues that OT saints did not have the permanent indwelling Spirit, as Jesus promises the Spirit would abide with his disciples "for ever".

    We also see in verse 17 that the Spirit had only dwelt with them, but in the future would be "in you"

    Verse 18 tells us that Jesus himself is the Spirit. I believe this explains verse 17, as Jesus had dwelt with the disciples for over three years. So, I believe this is what Jesus meant when he said, "for he dwelleth with you".

    And finally, on the day of Pentacost Peter said it was the fulfillment of Joel, that the Holy Spirit would be poured out on all believers. This also argues OT saints did not have the permanent indwelling Spirit.
     
  9. agedman

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    Seems rather inconsistent that God would indwell some redeemed, but not other redeemed.

    Your post leaves some unanswered questions:

    What was the prerequisite for indwelling?

    Was it different than the NT?

    Did God actually have more than one way to save - one for the old and one for the new?

    What then determined who was to be in paradise and who was to be in hell?
     
  10. Winman

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    Well, the only person where it is said the Spirit was within him was Moses in Isa 63:11

    Nebuchadnezzar said the spirit of the holy gods was in Daniel chapter 4, but I don't believe these verses should be used to form a doctrine. Nebuchadnezzar may have been speaking under the influence of the Holy Spirit here, but we can't say for sure.

    These are the only 2 instances where the Spirit is said to be within or in a man in the OT that I know of, but I might be wrong.

    Well, both Moses and Daniel were very devout and godly men, men of great faith.

    Generally speaking, I think YES. The Holy Spirit was usually associated with miracles in the OT, as when Samson slew a thousand men with the jawbone of an ass.

    Jud 15:14 And when he came unto Lehi, the Philistines shouted against him: and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and the cords that were upon his arms became as flax that was burnt with fire, and his bands loosed from off his hands.
    15 And he found a new jawbone of an ass, and put forth his hand, and took it, and slew a thousand men therewith.

    This was temporary. and allowed Samson to slay a thousand men.

    But in the NT the purpose of the Holy Spirit was that men could witness the gospel. (Acts 1:8)

    No, but we might disagree on what "saved" means. I believe the moment a person believes they are forgiven their sins and are "saved".

    I don't believe Abraham had the indwelling Holy Spirit when he died, but Jesus said he was "living" which means his sins were forgiven. I believe Abraham and all the OT saints had to wait in paradise in the center of the earth until Jesus rose and sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat in heaven. He then returned and took all those waiting saints to heaven, and gave them the Holy Spirit.

    Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
    9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

    Those who believed or trusted on the coming Messiah (Jesus) were forgiven their sins and went to wait in paradise.

    Salvation was the same, but the saints had to wait to receive the Holy Ghost.
     
    #10 Winman, Dec 23, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 23, 2013
  11. agedman

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    So, I assume that because these are the only mention and that they were
    "very devout and godly" the rest of the "Hebrews" 11 hall of fame were not devout enough and godly enough.

    hmmm.



    Seems that these quote does not discount that the Holy Spirit was not already a part of his life, but that the Holy Spirit filled to the point of miraculous control.

    Could not Sampson being "devout" (a Nazarene from birth) not also be indwelt?





    But look at the wording, doesn't this use "upon" rather than "in?" Isn't that part of your basic argument involving the OT folks?

    Am I to assume then that there was nothing other than "works" that was prerequisite to determine one to either paradise or hell?

    Seems terrible arbitrary as to what "measured up" to God's expectations, especially considering what David said about his own righteousness.



    What Scriptures would support these two statements?
     
  12. Jordan Kurecki

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    Luke 16 is not a parable.
     
  13. Winman

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    You can speculate all you want, but what we know as fact is that the scriptures say the Holy Spirit was not yet given before Jesus was crucified.

    Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    We also know the disciples did not have the Holy Spirit until after Jesus rose from the dead.

    Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

    We know Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit in John 14;

    Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
    18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

    It is clear that the disciples did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit, else it would be unnecessary for Jesus to promise the Holy Spirit to them.

    However, we know the disciples (except Judas) believed on Jesus after his very first miracle;

    Jhn 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

    I believe the evidence strongly supports that OT saints did not receive the indwelling Spirit until after Jesus rose from the dead.
     
  14. agedman

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    Your changing horses mid stream, Winman. Until this post you agreed that at least some of the OT were indwelt. Now you don't.


    But here is a problem, for Simeon was TOLD by the Holy Spirit he would see the messiah. I suppose the Holy Spirit could have whispered it to him in his sleep, but the Holy Spirit was certainly active in the OT. David said don't take your Spirit from me... How do you have taken from you what you do not posses?

    The Holy Spirit is (as you admitted previously) both a part of Sampson and Moses.

    So, how do you now reconcile your view with the truth of Scriptures?

    Look at the quotes above. Do ANY state that the OT folks were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

    And what of the Holy Spirit during the ministry of Christ? Remember the statement He gave Nicodemus? The Spirit comes and goes LIKE the wind it can be heard, but nobody knows were it is from or where it is going.

    The OP suggests that the OT folks were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. So far, it has not been disproved.
     
  15. Winman

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    No, go back and read again, I said it might be POSSIBLE that Moses had the indwelling Spirit. I say that because the word "within" is used in Isa. 63:11.

    But that doesn't mean the Holy Spirit was permanently dwelling in Moses.


    I have never denied the Holy Spirit was not active in the OT. All scripture is by inspiration of God, these men were moved by the Holy Spirit to write God's words.

    Well, with Samson scripture seems to imply it was a temporary thing, the Spirit would come and go. Moses we do not know. He surely had the Holy Spirit upon him a great deal, as he wrote the first 5 books of the Bible.

    I understand scripture for what it says. Nowhere do the scriptures say Moses had the permanent indwelling Spirit. He MIGHT have, but then he MIGHT NOT. My view is based on the information we are given, I try not to read into scripture what it doesn't say.

    If you insist Moses had the permanent indwelling Spirit, I would ask you to provide proof. If you cannot show that proof, then it is YOU that is reading into scripture.

    No, and neither does it tell us they were indwelt permanently.

    Scripture does not say Moses had six fingers on each hand, does that prove he had six fingers on each hand?

    So, this form of argument by you is a fallacy.

    I believe Jesus was speaking of the word of God here. Jesus said you can HEAR the sound thereof.

    Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    Jesus said his words were spirit, and they were life.

    Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    The scriptures say we are born again by the word of God;

    1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    Again, I believe Jesus was speaking of the word of God in John 3:8. From Moses forward, men always had the word of God, and so man was always influenced by the Holy Spirit.
     
  16. agedman

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    You never answered the basic questions that arise.

    HOW were folks selected for paradise? On works or on salvation?

    If Salvation, what was the seal?

    If the seal is different that that of the NT, was salvation then a different means?

    Winman,

    Follow the sentence construction. The WIND ..., and thou hearest the SOUND. Sound of what? The wind.

    God never speaks of the Word of God as not being able to tell from whence it comes or whither it goes. God breathed... All Scripture is given... and other such tell exactly were it comes from.


    Because the Holy Spirit is God, Jesus is God, the Father is God, of course all three have interlocking abilities - they are one. That they appear in the Scriptures at times as separate does not mean that they were. The trinity can not "unravel" nor can one part exist without the others.

    Example: Space. It consists of height, width, and depth. Space does not exist outside of these three. The same is with God.

    When Christ spoke that His words were spirit and life, He was not presenting "new" information, but stating that same evidence found at the very creation. God (Elohiym - plural form) spoke and life was created.

    No argument.

    Did you not know that Christ is the Word of God? (John 1)

    Those "born of the Spirit" (john 3:8) are born of Christ. We are "new creatures, created in Christ Jesus..."

    What is the result? The BELIEVER is subject to the direction of the Holy Spirit.

    One last point. Most of the world, for most of the world existence, had no "word of God" nor do they in this modern time.

    Back to the times of the OT, how then were folks saved, and sealed?

    What determined them to paradise rather than Hell?
     
  17. Winman

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    It's very late, I will get back to you tomorrow.
     
  18. Winman

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    OT saints were saved by faith, same as NT saints.

    I don't understand what you mean by salvation. OT saints were saved by faith, they believed what revelation they had from God. I believe they had to wait to receive the Holy Spirit after Jesus rose from the dead.

    Salvation is through faith, just as in the NT. Again, I believe they had to wait till Jesus rose from the dead, then they were also sealed by the Holy Spirit.

    Well, I disagree with you here, I believe Jesus was comparing the word of God to the wind, you hear it.

    Agreed, not really sure what you are trying to say though.

    I would disagree, Jesus's words were new revelation, just as the writings of the apostles (Paul, Peter, John, etc...) were new revelation.

    Well, there you go, the scriptures directly say we are born again by the word of God. This is exactly why I think Jesus was speaking of the word of God in John 3:8.

    Only since I was ten years old.

    Yes, and we are born of the word of God, 1 Pet 1:23.

    Not really sure what you are saying here.

    I would say the opposite is true. There are "flood" stories all over the world.

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html

    All men have some revelation of God and so are without excuse. (Rom 1:19-20)

    Again, OT saints were saved by faith. They believed what revelation they had from God.

    For Adam and Eve, they only knew God would send a "seed of the woman" that would bruise the head of the "seed of the serpent". That was the revelation they had, but they believed it, and God imputed them righteous.

    Again, I believe OT saints had to wait in Abraham's bosom until Jesus rose from the dead, then they received the Holy Spirit and were sealed. Now they await their resurrected bodies like a NT saint.
     
    #18 Winman, Dec 24, 2013
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