Other Scriptural texts

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by robycop3, Mar 1, 2006.

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  1. robycop3

    robycop3
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    There has been mucho discussion about whether the Septuagint was quoted by Jesus & the Apostles. Some say it was, while others such as Dr. Cassidy believe there were at least two other Hebrew texts in use at the time, and that one of them was read aloud by Jesus in Luke 4:16-18.

    We plainly see that JESUS...THE WORD...was NOT limited to just one version!

    Here's a site comparing NT quotes with the Septuagint. Now, whether these quotes were from the LXX or another Hebrew text, I don't know, but certainly they're not from the Ben Chayyim Text used to make the Old Testament in most of our Bibles, including the KJV.

    http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/7224/Rick/Septuagint/spexecsum.htm
     
  2. Dr. Bob

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    The definitive work is "Old Testament Quotations in the New Testament: A Complete Survey" by Gleason Archer and GC Chirichigno. They show the LXX quotations used by NT writers (along with all other direct quotations from the Hebrew and indirect/partial phrases quoted).

    To say that there was no LXX is ludicrous and counter NT reality. Revisionist historians evidently are not only found in liberalism.
     
  3. DeclareHim

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    I agree with you guys. There is no way the LXX was a fabrication. That rumor was created if I'm not mistaken by Ruckman so that automatically means garbage.
     
  4. Boanerges

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    Clearly there was an LXX pre Christ. The Torah was translated into Greek early (see fragments below), but the other books may have been done much later. There are some LXX fragments in the DSS inventory, but the Greek mss fragments there are in a minority.(mostly Aramaic and Hebrew) Although we have fragments demonstrating a pre Christ LXX, we do not know how the current LXX (there are a few versions) reflects what was written in the early LXX. Some say that it has been updated to more closely resemble the NT quotes.

    http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/lxxjewpap/7QEx.jpg

    http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/lxxjewpap/PRyl458b.jpg

    http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/lxxjewpap/4QLevA.jpg

    http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/lxxjewpap/4QLevB.jpg

    Another link that may be of interest:

    http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/lxxjewpap/tetragram.jpg
     
  5. Alta

    Alta
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    Yesterday I read a discussion of the Lewis Bibles, and by the time I registered, I cannot find the discussion. I'd like to know if the paper they use is as good a quality as the Cambridge. Can anyone advise me?
     
  6. DeclareHim

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    I suggest you start a new thread! Sorry that I can't help. But welcome to the BB [​IMG]
     
  7. robycop3

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    Dr. Cassidy told me there were other hebrew texts in use while Christ was here as a man, and that He read aloud from one of them in Luke 4:16-21. yet, the AV translators believed that Ptolemy Philadelph ordered the LXX to be made in the 200s BC. I make a motion that we hold the presses until we see what DC has to say along these lines.
     
  8. Boanerges

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    There are proto Masoretic texts (un pointed) that differ and the MT, and that may be the ones that Dr C is referring to. There are, however, fragments from an early LXX which was probably Torah only(see links above). Since we do not have a complete copy, one can only guess what the readings in the originals said. The early part (Torah) of the LXX was most likely translated from proto Masoretic texts.Keep in mind, that the LXX is literal in some areas, and loose in others compared to the Hebrew.
     
  9. TCassidy

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    It is now fairly well understood that a paleo-Hebrew text existed that differed in some very substantial ways from the Masoretic texts in common usage from around the 7th century (and the earlier 2nd century consonantal texts). This Hebrew text was only a theory prior to 1947 and was generally called the "LXX type text" because it was believed to have been the Hebrew text from which the LXX was translated (which would explain the significant differences between the LXX and the MT).

    At the time of the discoveries at Qumram a Hebrew text was found that was subsequently called the "Vorlage" text. Vorlage is a German word meaning "before language" or "before translation." It is now generally agreed that the LXX was translated from the Vorlage texts and it is most likely that Christ was quoting from such a text in the Gospels. The NT quoting from the Hebrew Vorlage text vice the LXX explains why the NT never quite gets the Greek of the LXX exactly right. [​IMG]
     
  10. Eliyahu

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    I think there might have been more than one Hebrew OT in addition to MT. When we see DSS on 1 Sam 11, neither MT nor LXX matches with it. The story on Nahash, King of Ammonites is interesting which I mentioned in other thread.

    The quotations in NT which are claimed to be from LXX are not exactly the same as LXX.
    One example may be Heb 10:5 and Psalm 40:6 ( my LXX is Alfred Ralphs which doesn't seem to reflect LXX very well but I think there is a deviation certainly there)
    Also, often I hear about 75 souls in Ex 1:5 of LXX, but LXX states 70 souls in Dt 10:22 which contradicts each other. Moreover, LXX explains Joseph had 9 in Gen 46:27 while MT mentions 2 souls, Manasseh and Ephraim. We can find no names for 9 sons belonging to Joseph.
    It is interesting that nobody has translated OT based on LXX into vernacular version.

    Does anyone of you have any LXX on line recommendable?
     
  11. Boanerges

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    http://www.rdg.ac.uk/lxx/lxxres.htm

    http://septuagint-interlinear-greek-bible.com/downbook.htm
     
  12. Eliyahu

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    Boanerges,

    Thank you very much. That is far better than what I had before. That site is much easier to read.

    But I notice there is still a difference in Heb 10:5 and Ps 40:6-7. ευδοκησασ - εζητησασ

    Again in Psalm 145:13, DSS reports the missing "nun" but in there, LXX differs from DSS, DSS is longer.

    Dt 10:22 tells us 70 souls, while Gen 46:27 mentions 9 souls(sons) for Joseph ( I wonder what 2/9 means).

    Eventually we have to assume that there could exist another OT texts other than MT or Pre-LXX

    [ March 03, 2006, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: Eliyahu ]
     
  13. Boanerges

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  14. IveyLeaguer

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    Agreed. It's an epidemic of sorts.
     
  15. Logos1560

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  16. Boanerges

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