"OTHERWISE they might see...hear...understand...and repent"

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Skandelon, Mar 9, 2004.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    Every one of the gospel writers quote a form of this verse which clearly defeats the Calvinistic premise that all men are born unable to see, hear, understand, believe and repent after hearing the gospel message.

    It says OTHERWISE refering to their being hardened. In other words, had they not been hardened they would have been able to see, hear, understand and believe.

    No Calvinists on this board has dealt with this verse that I have seen and I have asked numerous times.

    Here are some of the references to which I am refering: (Isaiah 6:9f; 43:8; Jeremiah 5:21; Ezekiel 12:2; Matthew 13:14; Luke 8:10; John 12:40; Romans 11:8 Mark 4:13-20: Matt13:18-23; Luke 8:11-15}

    Are Calvinists going to continue to avoid these clear teachings of the scripture?
     
  2. Skandelon

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    I guess so.
     
  3. Frogman

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    Perhaps Calvinists are subjected to a corporate hardening and cannot 'see, hear, or understand' ;)
     
  4. Skandelon

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    apparently
     
  5. gb93433

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    They are predestined to be incapable to respond.
     
  6. Me2

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    Actually ANYONE degrading Gods Grace to the point that God will torment his creation FOREVER is hardened already today.

    If Jesus Christ is Lord. His righteousness is stronger than any other enemy.

    His righteousness forgives his enemies with mercy.
    Not torment them eternally for their rebellion or ignorance.

    Anyone holding to the premise that God will not eventually forgive mankind is blinded from understanding Gods love for his creation.

    stated another way. "be cautious about believing any wisdom without real proof in hand".
     
  7. Skandelon

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    Me2, with all due respect I don't want to debate Universalism with you.

    Isn't there another forum for that debate?

    If God chooses to do something other than what he has revealed to us clearly in scripture with those who remain lost when they die, that is his perogative, but it is clear that scripture in no way supports Universalism and honestly I don't want to debate that with you.

    Blessings.
     
  8. BBNewton

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    Skan,

    In the gospels, why were these words said to the people they were directed at?
     
  9. Skandelon

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    Because they are true. I don't know what you are looking for here but like I said I really don't want to debate it. Its really not up for debate.
     
  10. Me2

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    Skandelon,

    I have no reason to upset anyone. Everyone has the oportunity to make up their mind. Im just offering alternatives to what is being presented.

    Calvinism as well as arminianism seem to both fall short when presented as Good News to the lost.

    God chooses whom he will harden and whom he will offer mercy towards.

    Not Skandelon, Me2, Calvin or Arminus.

    All opinions are always on the table.

    Me2
     
  11. Skandelon

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    But this is a Calvinism/Arminianism board not a Universalism/non-universalism board. Again, I'm not upset and I say this with all due respect for you. I just don't feel like this is a place to debate those issues.

    Just my opinion. Who am I, you can do what you want ultimately.
     
  12. Frogman

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    You understand love? What is love without justice? What would God be without the perfect union of love and justice? It is good to declare the love of God, but don't ignore his justice. The Bible certainly does not do this and speaks of the wrath of God in many places.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  13. Me2

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    the evidence is staring back at you on the cross.

    infinite justice and infinite mercy can go hand in hand into eternity unless sin exists.

    Forgman, Sin exists. therefore infinite justice cries for justice forever as infinite mercy cries for mercy forever.

    eternal problems would exist right?

    answer. pay the sin debt causing infinite justice to be appeased as well as infinite mercy to be appeased.

    Jesus died atoning for all sin.
    Being resurrected from death proving that his death was adequate to pay the sin debt in the eyes of His father.

    universe is once again in balance eternally and infinitely. both in regards to justice and mercy.

    Me2
     
  14. Frogman

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    I agree with your last statement, but do not believe this applies universally to men as it does to the universe or to the creature.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  15. Me2

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    Frogman,

    the premise begins in the garden. the two trees. the law (knowledge) and mercy (life). the imbalance (sin) is introduced with the added solution.

    "reach out and eat of the tree of life".

    which would solve the issues of imbalance by placing adam "into Christ". debt paid. no sin.

    imagine adam and eve. each would theoretically have to be placed into Christ for sin to be complataly covered over. (or in a legal sense paid for) each would theoretically have to recognize their falure to follow Gods law. recognize their need for a savior. enter into spiritual death. be judged and placed "into christ". be resurrected proving that resurrection power is stronger than the power of death for their sin to be paid for.

    isnt this happening to the "sons of God" beginning 2000 years ago. the elect. the vessels of mercy.

    now you must extend this to all sinners ever born for the proof that resurrection power is stronger than the power of death.
    theoretically being placed in christ atones for sin. yet resurrection from the dead proves that resurrection power is stronger than the power of death.
    this is the only way conveivable that all sinners born can bow knee and confess with tounge that Jesus is lord.

    It is his resurrection power.
    It is ONLY his body that has been resurrected.

    do you think that if the 1 of the 2 sinners would not be placed "into Christ" and be resurrected that Jesus hasnt proved to both equally that He is lord by the DEMONSTRATION that his power is stronger than death?

    keep in mind this imbalance involving sin in the universe involves every human being born. for each must be placed in christ for the imbalance to be resolved. infinite mercy and infinite justice will forever cry until the imbalance is resolved perfectly.

    This is a very rational problem here. It simply requires a perfect rational answer.

    is this how one would understand rationality. that God allows 99% of his creation to demonstrate that God cannot resolve this problem of imbalance between justice and mercy.
    or is it mans incapability to understand and correctly resolve this rational question to himself.

    Me2
     
  16. Yelsew2

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    Me2,
    Actually, ANYONE who fails to understand what God's GRACE is, has no right to say things like you just did! You see, God is a JUST God meaning that HE is the judge of man, and He is the one who metes out HIS JUSTICE as HE SEES FIT! Those who fail to conform to HIS Holy Word will be dealt with in accordance with HIS WRATH, HIS JUSTICE! Right now, God is behaving in accordance with his GRACE toward mankind, but Scriptures say that it won't always be that way, because it is appointed unto man, once to die, then the JUDGMENT! Better get ready!
     
  17. Me2

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    Yelsew2,

    Gods justice is the soul that sins shall die.

    Every creature born of adam is cursed cannot escape death. agreed.

    Yet the Sacrifice of the lamb of God has atoned for the sins of the world. past,present and future.

    This is the Grace of God. Yelsew.

    INFINITE GRACE. Able to cover all sins committed.

    But is this truly the full definition of Grace?

    Grace involves every creature, every creation and everything in heaven and in earth. namely that God the father has designed a process whereas his children would successfully become mature sons and daughters knowing what is his glory "first hand".
    that requires knowledge and an adequate way of accepting this intelligently and experientially

    currently he is selecting and educating his elders to teach his children of the knowledge of Good and evil. teachers of Good as well as teachers of evil.

    this is a misnomer on your part Yelsew. first the justice of God has been eternally met by Jesus atonement. we are understanding this today. even though each man must live in this evil world. His soul is eventually reconciled back to God.

    And Gods Wrath..Do you understand what Gods wrath actually is. Well to a sinner. Its mercy. but under Gods system. We are placed under anothers authority. A Lord. This is what man really despises. Gods denial of mans (imaginary) "free will"

    already spiritually died, been judged,
    and now Im back.

    Christ resurrected spirit is "within me" now as I am typing this. this is the first resurrection. It occurs to the "sons of God" while they are physically alive.

    you must be referring to the second resurrection? where everyone will be there at the great white throne judgement.

    heres a very interesting question for you..

    If Jesus is the head and his bride the body that contains his many part spirit. The great white throne in revelations is a metaphore containing Jesus body sitting on a throne.

    could this referr the Spirit of our LORD Jesus Christ judging Gods creation through the "sons of God", as innocent (forgive) and again minnistering to them in the lake of Fire (purging sin)?

    could the revelation of Jesus Christ actually be the revelation of the Spirit of Jesus Christ within the "sons of God" ?...Me2 says..you bet it is!

    THIS is Gods Grace Yelsew. Allowing his chosen "Sons" to be a vital part in the reconciliation of his entire creation.

    Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
     
  18. Ian Major

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    Skandelon said, No Calvinists on this board has dealt with this verse that I have seen and I have asked numerous times.

    See my post 68 of March 12 under 'God, That's not fair!'

    In Him

    Ian
     
  19. Yelsew2

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    Me2


    This cannot be further from the truth of scripture. If all men are to be reconciled back to God, who is being hurled into the burning lake?
    There are only two deaths ever spoken of in Scripture, the first is always death of the physical flesh, the second is always death of the human spirit. but once again you will not see the truth of scripture because you are blind to truth.
    Since you do not have the foggiest notion of what WRATH means, here's what the Dictionary says,
    God's wrath is not "Mercy", It is not a "transference of authority", God's wrath has nothing to do with "man's free will". God's wrath is deliberate punishment, deliberate destruction, deliberate action of supreme God over any or all of his creation.
     
  20. Me2

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    Yelsew2,

    the lake of fire is a metaphorical symbol of something.
    It is not a lake nor is it literal fire, nor literal brimstone. It doesn’t burn literal flesh and bone.

    It is represents something in the spiritual realm.

    It has to be something that is the consequence of the Great white throne judgement.
    This is a judgement rendered within the bounds of righteousness.

    If Jesus atoned for all sin. Then what is left towards the former sinner is the purging of or covering over of acts or memories and the consequences of collateral victims of the after effects of such actions. Mankind will never forget these memories. He will cover over them by adding to their lives, acts of righteousness needed towards the teaching of the corresponding truths.

    All evil that mankind will ever commit will never be forgotten. But a corresponding truth will be added to their knowledge base. Hence the knowledge of Good and evil. Mankind is the repository of all such knowledge. Gained by actual experience.

    There is life for these after the great white throne judgement. life will proceed age after age into eternity. As will all men being able to read each other as open books. Each act. Each word. both Good and evil.

    Have you forgotten any act of unrighteousness? Nor have I… Nor will any other human being forever.
    And sons of God are being judged today…each act. each thought.

    Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.


    Were dealing with spirit concepts. Not physical. Again misinterpreting the word of God.

    The first death is the death of our individual carnal spirits in death. (yet death still exists)
    The second death is the death of death itself. (no more curse)

    As we can concede that wrath is opposite of mercy in Gods plans for man, what is the conclusion of theses vessels of wrath?

    Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

    The “wrath” of God is during the day of the Lord. Judgement Day. which vessels of wrath fear judgement day of God. They expect that God will be angry with them for their shortcomings towards failing to be righteous before him. They didn’t understand the judgement of God for his righteous judgements are that all men be saved. The fear they held towards a God they believed to be wrathful was their own hardened imagination. They are the vessels of wrath. They are the ones identified by the definition of wrath.
    Not God. For he has already forgiven enemies against him by dying for them on the cross.

    They wrath of God towards all sinners is mercy and forgiveness.
    For you and I are sinners. He shows me mercy daily…..not wrath as carnal men define it as being

    Me2
     

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