Out of the blue salvation

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by JackRUS, Apr 8, 2005.

  1. JackRUS

    JackRUS
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2004
    Messages:
    1,043
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would like to hear some testimonies from the Calvinists here who believe that man is totally depraved before salvation, and their interpretation of 1 Cor. 2:14 precludes any chance for one to have any mental assent before the born again faith experience.

    How did you get saved?
     
  2. whetstone

    whetstone
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/11288.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    0
    Calvinists don't believe you don't have any mental assent before salvation so your question is flawed. here we go again with another thread based on a faulty premise.
     
  3. whetstone

    whetstone
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/11288.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    0
  4. JackRUS

    JackRUS
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2004
    Messages:
    1,043
    Likes Received:
    0
    Whetstone.
    You say in your testimony that at the early age of five your understood the Gospel message before you got saved. You wrote:

    Yet...

    IN the Westminster Confession the doctrine of Total Inability is stated as follows: — “Man, by his fall Into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.”

    http://www.the-highway.com/depravity_Boettner.html

    And real, honest Calvinists do proclaim that people don't have any mental assent before salvation, it's called total depravity. Hense the totally valid premise of my question.

    Are you a Calvinist? If so you need to change your thinking based on your own testimony.

    [ April 08, 2005, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: JackRUS ]
     
  5. JackRUS

    JackRUS
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2004
    Messages:
    1,043
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am mainly interested in hearing the testimonies of Calvinists here. You know, to see if they believe that Rom. 1:16 and 10:17 are true.

    Also the doctrine of unconditional election says the same thing about man's ability to conprhend anything from God, and I assume that also means the Gospel, before the born again experience. Observe:

    "The Westminster Confession states the doctrine thus: "By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated to everlasting life, and others are foreordained to everlasting death.

    "These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it cannot be either increased or diminished.

    "Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His mere grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace."

    http://www.caledonianfire.org/caledonianfire/Boettner/5points/unconditional.htm

    [ April 08, 2005, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: JackRUS ]
     
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,235
    Likes Received:
    1,320
    I am interested in hearing the testimonies of Arminians who saved themselves and came to Christ without any prompting from God, without any convicting of the Holy Spirit, and without any grace at all of the Lord.

    All you Arminians who saved yourselves in that manner just line up here and post your testimonies.
     
  7. JackRUS

    JackRUS
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2004
    Messages:
    1,043
    Likes Received:
    0
    TCassidy.
    I for one am not an Arminian, and it is clearly your premise that is baseless, if not totally ridiculous.

    I contend that God makes the dynamic choice (Rom. 9:15), but that He expects one when hearing the Gospel (Rom. 1:16; 10:11-17) to react in a manner the opposite of John 12:48 which is described clearly described in Isa. 66:2. Our choice is passive in the power sense, but a choice that has to be made none the less when the Holy Spirit speaks to our heart through His Word.

    So then, how did you get saved?
     
  8. whetstone

    whetstone
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/11288.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yet...

    IN the Westminster Confession the doctrine of Total Inability is stated as follows: — “Man, by his fall Into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.”

    http://www.the-highway.com/depravity_Boettner.html

    And real, honest Calvinists do proclaim that people don't have any mental assent before salvation, it's called total depravity. Hense the totally valid premise of my question.

    Are you a Calvinist? If so you need to change your thinking based on your own testimony.
    </font>[/QUOTE]You completely misunderstand what the westminster confession states and what Calvinism in general states. Total inability means that a person cannot have mental or spiritual understanding or acceptance of God APART from the Holy Spirit. It is very obvious that the Holy Spirit enabled me to desire and understand the gospel message. Do we need to create a poll for you too so you'll understand Calvinism?
     
  9. whetstone

    whetstone
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/11288.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    0
    double posted. sorry.
     
  10. whetstone

    whetstone
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/11288.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    0
    I might also mention that not a single Calvinist or the Baptist Confession claim that salvation is 'out of the blue.' That is yet another false assertion (strawman) presented against us (like Diane was guilty of before she polled us). Why don't you poll us and ask us if salvation is out of the blue? Why don't get you get your facts right? Why do you guys have such a problem with this? Disagree with us- no problem! Misrepresent us? What's up with that?!
     
  11. whatever

    whatever
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    2,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Apparently you missed T's point. He was illustrating the absurdity of your opening post by being absurd in the opposite direction. I got saved when the Holy Spirit irresistibly called me to faith, and I responded by choosing to believe. I'm really not sure what you think Calvinists believe.
     
  12. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    "out of the blue" is a phrase that at its root means 'not from within' but from without the person described as having or gaining something without evidence of "earning or acquiring it". It came to me 'out of the blue', or he got it 'out of the blue'. So in the discussion of Salvation of man, that which is not from within, or possessed by works, is merely 'out of the blue'.

    That is not an apt phrase regarding salvation, because we have a clear definition that salvation is through faith, and that faith comes to man by the hearing of God's word. Salvation is not of works, so there can be no evidence of 'earning it'. Salvation is not a matter of election, else there would be evidence that one is under election while another is not.

    Salvation is not by predestination either, else it is not by faith. Anyone who gains faith through hearing Gods word is saved and no we are not predestined to hear God's word. Yes, we hear God's word and it effects us, maybe even to the point of regenerating us to be receptive to things of the spirit.

    Salvation is available to all who hear and come to faith because all sin has been atoned therefore by faith we have everlasting life (salvation).

    There are no especially selected "elect", save for the Jews. Election is a myth, a figment of your literalist imagination.
     
  13. icthus

    icthus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    0
    Cassidy, why do you ask the post stupid questions, and make ignorant statements as you have done here?

    Name me ONE Arminians who is truly saved, take even 1% credit for their Salvation?

    You are like Whetstone, who cannot deal with the facts of Scripture, cannot answer our questions/objections, and then say some nonsense in the hope that you could break us. You guys ought to be ashamed of yourselves
     
  14. LaymansTermsPlease

    LaymansTermsPlease
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2003
    Messages:
    127
    Likes Received:
    0
    Name me ONE Arminians who is truly saved, take even 1% credit for their Salvation?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Yeah, talk about Arminians making strawmen of Calvinist points, here's the old Calvinist-made strawman of non-Calvinists claiming even a tiny shred of credit for their own salvation.
     
  15. whetstone

    whetstone
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/11288.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    0
    Claiming I am unable to deal with the facts of scripture? Totally unable on my own? Yes. With the help of the Holy Spirit? No. I've written extensively on why I believe Calvinism is Biblical ( http://www.pre-evangelism.com/learn/theology_articles/soteriology/whycalvinist.htm ). You claim that I cannot answer your questions/objections. Again, I must say that on my own you are correct. With the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I am enabled to. As for being ashamed, I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth. With adequate scriptural evidence and a no-nonsense approach, how have I failed to live up to your expectations as a 'Calvinist who can defend his beliefs'??
     

Share This Page

Loading...