Out of Whose Womb

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, May 6, 2015.

  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular
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    I have been falsely accused on another thread of believing that the Church for which Jesus Christ died is a "parenthesis" Church!

    Some years ago I started a thread regarding the claim by certain theologians of Classic Dispensational persuasion that the Church, for which Jesus Christ died, was a parenthesis, an intercalation, in God’s program for Israel. At that time many Board members took great umbrage at that claim. The vitriol expressed in some responses was intense to say the least but I cannot say I was surprised. Many who claim to be of pre-trib-dispensational persuasion are apparently of the “Rapture Ready” type and not conversant with the teachings of Classic Dispensationalism, a doctrine first formalized by John Nelson Darby of the Plymouth [England] Brethern.{http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-JohnNelsonDarbyandth.pdf}

    Following are remarks by three prominent Classic Dispensationalists, Chafer, Ryrie, and Ironside. Lewis Sperry Chafer founded and served as the first president of Dallas Theological Seminary, and was an influential proponent of Christian Dispensationalism in the early 20th century. Charles C. Ryrie is a Christian writer and theologian who served as professor of systematic theology and dean of doctoral studies at Dallas Theological Seminary He is also the author of the Ryrie Study Bible.

    Then there are the remarks of Harry A. Ironside former pastor of the Moody Memorial Church in Chicago. The quote is from the preface to his book, The Great Parenthesis.

    I must state as forcefully as I can that I find the doctrine of the Church, for which Jesus Christ died, as a parenthesis or an intercalation, in God’s program for Israel to be not only repugnant. but blasphemous, and I reject it completely. Now many pre-trib-"snatching away" folks will be disturbed but the truth is that the concept of the Church as a "parenthesis" in Gods program is the direct result of the pre-trib doctrine of John Nelson Darby. Whether dispensationalists want to acknowledge it or not the doctrine of a "parenthesis" Church came out of the womb of John Nelson Darby's pre-trib-dispensational doctrine!

    On an earlier thread I posted remarks by the great song writer, Isaac Watts, regarding the Church and National Israel. They are appropriate here:

    Watts states unequivocally that GOD has rejected National Israel just as I have stated on this BB numerous times presenting the following as Scriptural proof:

    Matthew 21:43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
     
  2. blessedwife318

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    I will back you up on this OR. I have been in Dispensational Churches my whole life and went to a very Dispensational Bible College and that is exactly what I was taught. When we went through the 7 Dispensations even my chart in my notes that the Church age in Parentheses. Also there was no shying away from the fact that Darby was the one that systematized Dispensational teaching and the Scofield was influential in getting it to the masses.

    Now full disclosure I still consider myself part of the Dispensational camp, although its becoming less and less true. I am very Pre-Mill in my Eschatology but I have never been Pre-trib despite growing up in side Pre-trib Dispensational circles. I have been studying Convent Theology here more of late and find it intriguing although I still can't wrap my head around A-Mill Eschatology. But you are not wrong in what you have stated about the history of Dispensationalism.
     
  3. OldRegular

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    Thanks very much Dear Lady. Your kind remarks are appreciated more than you know.
     
  4. blessedwife318

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    You are most welcome.
     
  5. Jerome

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    Been watching Mother Angelica reruns, eh?
     
  6. blessedwife318

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    I'm sorry I'm missing the joke. I don't know who that is.
     
  7. Iconoclast

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    Most of us have learned the premill ideas first.....but then when you study more you see other things....
    The Covenants are central to the unfolding of redemption. It unifies all 66 books while dispensational teaching divides and fragments the truth.
     
  8. OldRegular

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    Scofield wrote a book "Rightly Dividing the Truth". Pre-trib-dispensationalism splinters the truth and even worse makes the Church for which Jesus Christ died a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for national Israel. The pre-tribbers on this forum rabidly deny belief in the "parenthesis" Church but also rabidly embrace a Jewish millennium and the return of National Israel! But that doctrine as the OP shows dictates the doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church.

    Prominent pre-trib-dispensationalist John F. Walvoord writes, regarding the definition of the church, [Major Bible Prophecies, page 282]:

     
  9. Jerome

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    "With all our admiration for these great standard Divines, we are not prepared to shut ourselves up in their little iron cages. We say, “Open the door and let me fly—let me still feel that I am at liberty. Increase my faith and help me to believe a little more.” I know I can say I have had an increase of faith in one or two respects within the last few months. I could not, for a long time, see anything like the Millennium in the Scriptures. I could not much rejoice in the Second Coming of Christ, though I did believe it. But gradually my faith began to open to that subject and I find it now a part of my meat and drink, to be looking for, as well as hastening unto, the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ!" —Charles Spurgeon, "The Necessity of Increased Faith"
     
  10. OldRegular

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    And the LORD came for Charles Spurgeon at the age of young age of 58!

    I would also note that Spurgeon thought Darby a heretic because of Darby's view of the atonement!
     
  11. percho

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    and so shall we ever be with the Lord. kjv

    Has Charles Spurgeon qualified for the above in the context of that above from the verse whence it was taken?

    I guess I am asking has the following relative to Charles Spurgeon or me and you taken place?

    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thes 4:16

    Does the trumpet sound when we die?
     
    #11 percho, May 7, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 7, 2015
  12. OldRegular

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    No! Only the soul of Spurgeon is with the LORD. I am simply saying at death the soul goes to be with GOD awaiting the resurrection of the body!!
     
  13. OldRegular

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    A little more on the non-dispensationalism of Isaac Watts from the link graciously provided by DHK. {http://scottaniol.com/wp-content/uploads/Aniol2.pdf}

     
  14. OldRegular

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    From Dr Thomas Ice: {http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/TheUniquenessofTheChurch.html}

     
  15. OldRegular

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    The purpose of this thread is to show that the concept of the Church as a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for national/ethnic Israel is the invention of pre-trib-dispensationalists. Following are remarks by dispensational scholar John Walvoord:{http://www.walvoord.com/article/152}

     
  16. convicted1

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    In your first post in this thread, you stated you were studying 'Convent' theology and not 'Covenant theology', hence the joke by Bro. Jerome...
     
  17. blessedwife318

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    Oh OK thanks. Yeah my spelling can be bad when I'm using my phone. :)
     
  18. convicted1

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    Soooooo....'Dr.' Ice didn't believe the church was/is the body of Christ???


    [​IMG]
     
  19. OldRegular

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    It seems that Chafer, Ryrie, Walvoord, and Ironside had an unbiblical view of the Church. Perhaps they never got around to reading Ephesians 2:11-22!
     
  20. Darrell C

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    Could you post what you saw that led you to this conclusion?


    God bless.
     

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