Overcoming

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Hawaiiski, Sep 17, 2007.

  1. Hawaiiski

    Hawaiiski
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    The 7 churches in Rev. 2 & 3 are given promises concerning those who overcome, some of which seem to be connected w/ salvation (Rev. 2:11; 3:5).

    Are these exhortations instructing people to overcome, or are they encouraging words reminding believers that they will overcome?

    Can these verses be cross referenced w/ I. Jn. 2:13; 4:4; 5:4?
     
  2. rjprince

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    I see no other way to take them except to link them with the 1John passages (also 2:14 & 5:5). If you define an overcomer in any other way than


    then you have in essence added works to our salvation in that we are kept saved by works.

    It is certainly not an INVALID practice to let the way John uses the same term in another of his works give some help in understanding what he intends in Rev 2:7,17,26; 3:5,12,21. It may also be possible to understand this in the sense of being strong because the Word of God abides in them as in 1John 2:14.

    Rev 12:11 uses the word to speak of the brethren who were accused night and day before our God.

    The word is also translated as prevail, conquer, and victory (5:5; 6:2; 15:2).

    However you take it, it must be in harmony with all the many passages that speak of our salvation as being by grace, not works.
     
  3. JustChristian

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    Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    Clothed in white raiment is symbolic of being saved. This verse says that in order to be saved you must overcome the world. That is, having been saved by Grace alone through faith alone you must have the kind of faith that abides throughout your life. Those who are never born again so that they have this kind of faith will go TO HELL.
     
  4. webdog

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    Amen.:godisgood:
    why are we typing so big?
     
    #4 webdog, Sep 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 20, 2007
  5. rjprince

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    That come perilously close to WORKS SALVATION. "If you don’t live it, you didn’t keep it" or more commonly in these here circles, "If you don’t live it, you never had it to begin with".

    What about the believers in 1Cor 11 who were chastened of the Lord that they should not be condemned with the world? Some chastened with sickness and some chastened with DEATH! God chastens His own! They did not do so well as far as the abiding faith idea goes...

    Why so big? POINT WEAK, YELL LOUD!!!
     
  6. JustChristian

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    I'm describing the nature of salvation not what is required to achieve it. Jesus said to Nicademus "Ye must be born again." I'm simply reinforcing that requirement. Someone who is born again produces good fruit. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit.
     
  7. JustChristian

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    The only problem is that this idea is found in many places in the New Testament. Here's one:

    Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
    Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
    Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    By what cross reference do you explain this away?
     
  8. npetreley

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    You don't need a cross reference. Just look at the context. It's talking about how you can know true faith by the fact that it produces works.

    18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

    I will show you my faith BY WHAT I DO. It has nothing to do with being saved by works.
     
  9. DeafPosttrib

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    Baptistbeliever is right.

    'Overcoming' is an action.

    Salvation is not a one time moment when onced believed and accepted Christ. This is the beginning of salvation, and we are in process of being sanctification throughout our life. When once we believed and accepted Christ, we are enter into the narrow road. Walking on the narrow road is like as we are now in spiritual warfare. Enter into the gate(heaven) is not easy. We have to fight against flesh, world, and Satan in our life.

    Jesus warns us in Rev. 2:10-11 if we do not endure in our tribulations at death, then we shall suffer the second death - cast away into the lake of fire.

    Same with Rev. 3:3-5 telling us, if we do not watch, Christ shall come upon us as THIEF. 'Thief' is not a positive. Also, it is not "rapture". 'Thief' speaks of judgment with punishment. Also, 'Thief' is speaks of destruction described in 1 Thess. 5:2-9.

    Christ warns us, if we fail to overcome them in our life, then our names would be blot out of the book of life, and cast away into the lake of fire.

    Bible commands us that, we ought to be endure with our faith and to overcome the world in our life till our death, or if we fail them, we shall not have eternal life at the end of our life.

    Obivously, Bible teaching us that our security salvation is conditional with word, "IF"'s.

    Overcome is an action with commit and dedicate. We must take heed God's Word, and obey them, so, we can have eternal life - Rev. 22:14.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  10. Hawaiiski

    Hawaiiski
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    How do you reconcile this w/ all the verses stating we are saved by faith alone w/o works?
     
  11. JustChristian

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    That's correct. I never did say that salvation was by works. I simply said that true salvation is evidenced by works.
     
  12. skypair

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    I believe that...

    ... 1John 5:4-5 provides a DEFINITION of overcomers -- namely: "4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

    So when we come to Rev 2-3, we note first that the overcomers are those who believed in Christ. But the more important message I believe from these mentions of "overcomers" in Rev 2-3 is what is their reward?

    Philadelphia's (Rev 3:12) "reward," for instance, is the be raptured (this is the only way you can get there) to NJ and have its name, the name of God, and Christ's NEW NAME on them -- COOL! Smyrna (Rev 2:10) will "receive a "crown of life" which is awarded after the rapture and before the trib. These rewards specific to the rapture tell me that the rest of the overcoming churches will go into the tribulation.

    Look at Sardis' "overcomers" -- "he shall be clothed in white raiment" (Rev 3:18, 6:9) signifying to me that they will be martyrs of the tribulation. Or Pergammum -- "Repent, or I will come upon thee quickly and fight against thee with the sword of My mouth." That is a tribulatoin threat. Christ comes after the GT to slay all enemies with the sword of His mouth.

    I would suggest, therefore, that we 1) look at "overcomers" as believers and 2) that works distinctions are for the purpose of encouraging us about our rewards and their timing.

    skypair
     
    #12 skypair, Sep 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2007
  13. HankD

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    A verse we all know and recite reminding ourselves (as if we didn't know, OK some just take it for granted) that salvation is by grace through faith...

    Ephesians 2
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    But why are we saved?

    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    Now if we do not "walk in them" (good works) and are behaving in a fleshy manner, we are carnal, a charge Paul brought against the Church at Corinth.

    This then is what we must overcome, the inclinations of the flesh.

    Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.


    Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

    1 John 2
    14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
    15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
    16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
    17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

    HankD​
     
  14. Hawaiiski

    Hawaiiski
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    HankD

    So, if the believers in Rev. 2,3 didn't overcome the inclinations of the flesh, they lost their salvation?
     
  15. Hawaiiski

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    How can these churches go into the Trib. when John wrote to them in the 1st century?
     
  16. skypair

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    There are 3 revelations regarding the church here, hawaii (BTW -- just got back from Kauai. It was great!) 1) Existing churches were addressed. 2) Existing bad and good characteristics which would be true throughout the church age were addressed. 3) A chronology of church development was revealed from the first church to the end days church, Laodicea.

    It is this latter that we apply to see that these churches are 1) the 10 virgins of Mt 25:1-13 and 2) to see that they are the 5 barley loaves which, added to the 2 fishes, were broken (martyred figuratively) to feed 5000 (the trib populace fed the "bread" of truth) in John 6's "sign miracle of Christ (there were 7 -- they were signs of how the church age and trib would unfold).

    skypair
     
  17. DeafPosttrib

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    Romans 8:13 tells us, if we walk after flesh, we shall die. 'Die' is not speak of physical, it means spiritual death.

    In Gal. 6:7-9 telling us, if we sow flesh, we shall reaping corrupitble- everlasting punishment in hell. If we sow spirit, we shall reaping everlasting life. That mean, we must walk in the spirit daily in our life.

    Gal. 5:19-21 warn us, if we do these things, we cannot enter the kingdom of God-eternal life. We must walk in spirit and carry our fruits in our life. If we don't carry fruits, and not abiding in Christ, we shall be cast away into fire - John 15:1-6.

    Rev. 3:5 telling us, we must overcome them in our life, or if we fail to overcome them, then our names might be removed out of the book of life, and cast us away in the lake of fire. We must take heed God's Word and obey them(Rev. 22:14).

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  18. Hawaiiski

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  19. JustChristian

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  20. HankD

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    No.

    Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.​

    Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

    1 Corinthians 11
    30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
    31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
    32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
     

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