P=Perseverance of the Saints

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by annie, Nov 19, 2004.

  1. annie

    annie
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    I am new to the board.
    I only learned of the Reformed Theology this year.
    I do believe that is what I am.
    Anxious to hear others thoughts on the P of TULIP.

    Perseverance of the Saints means to me that those truly saved will never be lost.
     
  2. Monergist

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    All that the Father gives Him (Christ) are His & He will not lose one. [​IMG]
     
  3. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Monergist;
    What about this one Christ had;
    Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
    Just seems to me if one is lost there can be more.
    May God Bless you;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  4. mprivett

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    He predestines some to be conformed to the image of His Son, and to be glorified. If you can lose your salvation God is a liar. Jesus said that the Father draws some and gives them to the Son, who raises them up on the last day.
     
  5. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    Seems that this is saying that Perseverance is an obligation of a saint, and not something that God does for man. Man must have perseverance and FAITH. My, My, My, man must do something for his salvation....and it's right here in the scriptures!
     
  6. johnp.

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    Hello Wes, Outwest.


    Quite right but the other way round.

    Of course he must. He must believe that Christ died for his sins. John 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
    If you believe then you persevere and if you do not believe you will not persevere. Perseverance is a by-product of faith. It is not a work as you suggest. It is the result of the only work we are called to do, believe in Christ. That's the gospel message.

    If you don't mind I would like to ask you where you got your faith from and, did Christ die for your sins?
    I ask the first because if you have found it you should tell others how to.
    Secondly, if Christ died for our sins, if the Judge has declared another guilty in our place, what sin can we go to Hell for? Is it unbelief? Is that a sin? Did Jesus not die for our sins?
    If I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins, and I do, then that must logically mean, because logic is not a sin, that my sins are no longer chargable to me, Rom 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? I am a free man. I revel in my freedom and fall down on my knees because of His gift, Eph 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
    I find it difficult as a man who is considered holy and blameless in his sight, Eph 1:4, to imagine what is in perseverance that is difficult? What is love if it is not perseverance? Anything less than perseverance is not love.

    johnp.
     
  7. Ray Berrian

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    Not all Christians persevere in their faith, but we can be assured of the perseverence of the Savior. [Hebrew 7:25 & I John 2:1] Since Jesus died for all of our sins, [I Corinthians 15:3] all Christians will ultimately be saved in Heaven forever. Some born again Christians will be 'ashamed' to stand in the Presence of the Lord. [I John 2:28]

    Not all Christians will be the 'creme de la creme' as noted in II Timothy 2:17-21. Some will be honorable in Heaven while others during their earthly life will have dishonored Jesus.

    But to we who really love Him, the hymnist penned these words, 'Oh, to be like Him blessed Redeemer.

    All who receive Christ will be saved for time and eternity.
     
  8. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    Johnp,
    And for those who believe now, but do not persevere in their faith, are they SAVED even though they don't persevere? Perseverance is something that must be worked at, it is not something that "just happens". We must work to retain our faith in God in the face of all who are 'enemies' of God. We must keep ourselves girded with the Whole armour of God. We must get on out knees daily to keep our minds focused on God, and we must iterate and reiterate our beliefs frequently to keep them fresh. Else we lose our faith, and fall by the wayside only to be cast into the lake of fire. Being Christian is WORK that we MUST DO DAILY!

    From the WORD, and Yes, but not mine alone, but ALL sins in ALL times. There has not been a sin that has not been atoned, save for the rejection of the Holy Spirit. How can one who rejects the Holy Spirit receive illumination of the scriptures?

    Glad to, I read the word of God daily, have heard, and still hear many believers talk of their faith in God, and I obeyed the command to believe. It is true, Faith does come from Hearing, and Hearing by the word of God. Try it! It works!
    The only sin that is not forgiveable according to scriptures is the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and I take that to mean Rejection of the Holy Spirit.

    I get weary of people mistakenly calling UNBELIEF a sin! "Belief" is what we must have TO DO righteousness. If one HAS "Unbelief" then the one is not going to righteousness, but rather the opposite which is sin. Unbelief is not the sin, disobedience of the command to believe is the sin. The difference is that one does not "DO" unbelief or belief, but rather that One HAS belief or unbelief. For unbelief to be sin, one must DO unbelief, and no one "DOES" unbelief. One does disobedience to believe, which is the sin, the "original sin" I might add.

    Sure your sins are chargeable to you, If you sin, you sin! But you are not subject to the penalty of sin because that penalty has already been paid in your stead. Therefore You do not die for the purpose of paying the penalty for sin. You can now have everlasting life by believing in Jesus, just as Jesus said in John 3:16..."whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life." Those that are cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:15 are those who do not have faith in God, and that includes all who have at one point had faith but have lost it because they did not exercise and make their faith grow.

    Do you not understand that sins are DEEDS? All DEEDS will be tested by God as if testing in fire. That which is good comes through the fire refined and purified in the manner that gold, and silver are purified. Fire does not effect true gemstones. But those DEEDS that are sins, will be consumed in the fire in the manner that wood, hay, and stubble are consumed in fire, leaving the one who did the deeds destitute with nothing to lay at the feet of Jesus.

    Have you isolated what the gift is in the Ephesians passage? If you say Grace, then you'd be wrong. Scriptures all call the gift of God to man, SALVATION, given by God in his grace. Scriptures all refer to Jesus as a gift of God, given in Grace. So it is a mistake to see grace as the gift of God in this passage.

    Here's what scriptures demand of us for us to persevere.
    What does it mean to "prove victorious"? Doesn't victory imply effort on our part? Therefore isn't our salvation dependent upon our own human effort as well as the saving power of God?

    What does it take to keep our robes "white", or to keep our white robes "spotless" Doesn't that take work on our part?

    What does it mean to "keep working to the end"?

    What does it mean to "have your name blotted from the Book of life" Doesn't that mean that your name had to be written into the book of life at some time, whether before the foundation of the world, or by coming to faith in God during this natural life.

    If you think that perseverance is not difficult, then you ain't doing the work of God, you ain't keepin' your white robes spotless, you ain't...etc. Perseverance is difficult at best, and down right impossible without the Holy Spirit to guide you and lift you up when you fall, to steady your legs in the face of fear, and to assure you of forgiveness when you confess your sins. Without God's help no man could stand in the face of trials. Perseverance is hard work!
     
  9. Ray Berrian

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    Wes Outwest,

    This is a great truth to be learned and a good way to explain it.

    Unbelief leads to the 'condemnation' of Hell or the second death; belief in Jesus means no condemnation. [Romans 8:1] In the Greek there is only the first phrase and the latter two were never written by Paul in verse one.

    It is our goal to serve and love the Lord with a pure heart until we stand in His Presence. Ephesians 2:10 and Philippians 3:12 speak to this topic.
     
  10. Ray Berrian

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    The reference for the first paragraph of my last post comes from John 3:18.

    'The sinner who believes in Jesus will not perish, but the ones who refuse or neglect to believe will be placed in destruction at physical death, and stand ccondemned every moment they are living in His world here on earth.
     
  11. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi everyone;
    I have to side with Wes on this one. The very word persevere means to "hold on to" so you don't loose it. I will admit that there are some scriptures that seem to support the OSAS position, but there are twice as many and they twice as clear, that support loosing it for unbelief. No one is saved with out faith and once it's lost you can't get it back. This is why we are told to continue in Him, by Christ Himself. If you do not continue in Him you will loose your faith.
    There is no man, fallen angel, or demon or devil that can take it from you, true, but we are not chained to God. If we were we wouldn't be able to sin anymore. If man looses his faith, it's because he him self did not maintain that faith. Maybe I should say continue. Many receive the gospel and believe but because they have no root wither and die. If we believe, we are saved, aren't we?. But what about the seed that fell on the rock in Luke 8:6 It started to grow but died because there was no moisture, or no one watered it.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike
     
  12. Wes Outwest

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    Well said ILUVLIGHT!
     
  13. johnp.

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    Hello Wes.

    I was told that if you believed in Jesus then your sins would be forgiven.
    Can it be that you see the heart of man? That you can tell with your eyes what a man thinks? Thinks not.
    If my sins are forgiven then my sins are forgiven. The only thing to die for is sin. But not me. I am a free man. A child of God not a servant. My place is in His house forever regardless of my behaviour. Otherwise it would be of works and not of faith.

    Do you really have to work at retaining your love of God. Then it must be questioned if love really needs tending hasn't it. Who will tend to that but the lovers?

    So we must struggle must we against joining the enemies of our lover? That is a strange notion if you don't mind me saying so. But then again, it could be me that is strange here.
    ...girded with the Whole armour of God. That's how you do it is it? Thank you for the advise, I shall take it.

    What am I and my house that He should bless me so? Brother, there is love here. Why must you keep your mind focused. Is your love so weak?
    That's your doctrine driving you to some loveless desolate place. He is love not fear. He loves us. Watch the much babbling, 'reiterating frequently' is a work and will fail you.

    Being Christian is WORK that we MUST DO DAILY! I thought being Christian meant that we are what we are, by the grace of God, and that having an effect on one. 1 Cor 15:10. That we are no longer goats but sheep. Good at magic are you? Can you reverse the trick God did on those He chose? A Christian is a Christian by nature not effort.

    Then Jesus died for all sins you say? Then Jesus did not die for all sins you say! How do we then get this illumination of the scriptures? What you are saying then is this; That it is within our capablity to seek God and ask Him to reveal what we need to know for salvation. This does not only mean that we do that which the scriptures explicitly denies is possible but that we must continue to act at a certain level of intensity overwise we burn the burn! What is that level? If you feel good about yourself? You set the standard? Did He die for all sins or not?

    Faith does come from Hearing... I know and I am glad you know. Thank you for telling me, you may see this repeated on one of the other points.
    So you get the faith you need from indoctrinating yourself with the word of God. Nothing wrong with that I am sure. It won't save anyone though because it is God that works through those words and a little can be enough. Your reading of the bible will not save you. I am sure you are very devout. Much more so than me.

    And you say that sin is blasphemy right?

    That above is misapplied scripture. You are in error. It speaks of Christian teachers and that is all.

    Thank you but I will stay with my error. My error is that I believe that the faith I need for a sucessful birth is given to me by grace. Faith is salvation and it is the gift given to us.

    I am not sure if He wants to share His glory with you man. He told me He was not interested in me sharing it with me. It detracts from Him.

    1 Cor 1:30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

    johnp.
     
  14. Ray Berrian

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    ILUVLIGHT,

    My brother, you said,
    'Maintaining a Christians faith should be an outflow of that person's love for the Lord. But in the real sense if a true believer thinks that he or she is 'maintaining ones faith' they have come to believe that salvation is by faith plus 'works' or 'good works.' God speaking through the Apostle Paul indicates that grace comes in the form of a gift to be received and ' . . . not of works, lest that person should boast' because of his or her personal maintainance. [Ephesians 2:9]

    Not all Christians will be the 'creme de la creme' and at the Judgment Seat of Christ Christians will all have to pass through the fire of God's fiery holiness for a testing or evaluation. Keeping this in mind, [I Corinthians 3:11-15] some born of the Spirit Christians will be saved but only 'by the skin of their teeth,' or in Biblical or theological words, 'saved so as by fire.'

    Dr. Berrian
     
  15. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    Johnp
    Forgiveness accompanies confession, John, writing to believers, tells us in 1 John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and Just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." I have no knowledge of unconfessed sins being forgiven.

    If the only thing to die for is sin, then by all means you will die because you sin. Your response indicates that you are still "Under the Law" where the penalty for sin is death. Then for what purpose did Jesus die, was HE NOT SINLESS, Blameless, the Lamb without spot! Why did He die?

    You are obviously not married, or you would understand the amount of work there is in retaining the love between you and your wife whom you live with. How much more is there to do to retain your love of God whom you cannot see!


    What am I and my house that He should bless me so? Brother, there is love here. Why must you keep your mind focused. Is your love so weak?
    That's your doctrine driving you to some loveless desolate place. He is love not fear. He loves us. Watch the much babbling, 'reiterating frequently' is a work and will fail you.</font>[/QUOTE]First let me inform you, GOD IS NOT LOVE. God, who is Spirit, Loves. Neither is God fear or any other emotion!

    It is not a matter of strength or weakness, you see Faith the size of a mustard seed is sufficient, but it must be exercised or it becomes dead faith! How does one retain what one has if not by using it!

    Being Christian is WORK that we MUST DO DAILY! I thought being Christian meant that we are what we are, by the grace of God, and that having an effect on one. 1 Cor 15:10. That we are no longer goats but sheep. Good at magic are you? Can you reverse the trick God did on those He chose? A Christian is a Christian by nature not effort.</font>[/QUOTE]A Christian is a Christian ONLY THROUGH FAITH in the Christ! Faith must be exercised to be retained! Man's "nature" is of sin, and being alien to God. So it is only through FAITH in Christ that one is Christian.

    Then Jesus died for all sins you say? Then Jesus did not die for all sins you say! How do we then get this illumination of the scriptures? What you are saying then is this; That it is within our capablity to seek God and ask Him to reveal what we need to know for salvation. This does not only mean that we do that which the scriptures explicitly denies is possible but that we must continue to act at a certain level of intensity overwise we burn the burn! What is that level? If you feel good about yourself? You set the standard? Did He die for all sins or not?</font>[/QUOTE]Of course He died for ALL sin! However, if one rejects GOD the HOLY SPIRIT, he is rejecting GOD. If you reject God how can you expect to receive from God? God does not force even one man to become a believer. And don't cite "Saul on the Road to Damascus", you see Saul believed in God, and believed that he was doing the Will of God by eliminating the growing "threat" to God that was called "Christians". So Saul-to-Paul is not a good example of God forcing one to become a believer. Jesus simply redirected Paul's zeal! And I might add, I've known a few in modern times who have received similar redirection, leaving Calvinism to become "Unhyphenated, and unabashed Christians"

    As for man's capabilitity to seek God, Here's what Jesus, in speaking to a crowd of Jews who were not believers in the sense that they had no "faith in Him" as "the Christ", has to say about that,
    Again, Keep in mind that these were Jews that Jesus was addressing, but His message is universal to all mankind.

    Who saved the Ethiopian Eunuch? What was he doing when Phillip "stumbled into his path"?
    The result of the Eunuch's reading of the scriptures, and Phillip's aiding in the eunuch's understanding, is that the eunuch received the message through belief, and was baptised by Phillip in that same hour.

    How did your "conversion" take place? Did you simply accept Calvin's election theory and instantly know that you are an elect, or did you have to come to faith in God, to know and understand it.

    And you say that sin is blasphemy right?</font>[/QUOTE]NOT I, but scriptures do, and I agree that Blasphemy of the Holy spirit is the only sin that causes one to go to hell! However, not all "blasphemy" is "unforgiveable" The Lord Himself states that using His name in vain is forgivable.

    That above is misapplied scripture. You are in error. It speaks of Christian teachers and that is all. </font>[/QUOTE]Response,
    Care to rethink how I might have "misapplied" the scripture?


    Thank you but I will stay with my error. My error is that I believe that the faith I need for a sucessful birth is given to me by grace. Faith is salvation and it is the gift given to us.</font>[/QUOTE]Then you do not understand Grace!

    Grace has no power to give anything because it is a behavioral trait of the one possessing it. When one is behaving with Grace, one can give Gifts, but it not grace that gives the gift, it is the one behaving with grace.

    Faith is not a gift of Grace, and it is not something that can be given from one to another. If it is, and you have a lot of it, perhaps you could give me some of your faith. Maybe the size of a mustard seed is all you would need to give me in order for me to have sufficient faith. If you cannot give me even that trifling amount of your faith, then perhaps you should rethink about what faith really is.

    Salvation and FAITH are not the same thing, but in order to receive the free gift of Salvation, one must have FAITH in God.

    By having faith, you have experienced the New Birth in Christ!

    I am not sure if He wants to share His glory with you man. He told me He was not interested in me sharing it with me. It detracts from Him.

    1 Cor 1:30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord." </font>[/QUOTE]DOING what God commands us to do, is not "competing with" or "sharing in" His glory. It is rather, demonstrating our Faith in Him through obedience to Him. Isn't it James who told us that faith without works is dead? I think Peter also said it too!.
     
  16. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi John;
    Being told a thing is truth doesn't make it truth, unless. It is told specifically by God's Word, ("if we are to be fundamental about it"). Believing is being saved, but where do you place your faith while you take part in sin willingly. By the way all sin is committed willingly or it wouldn't be called sin. We are all aware of our own conscience if we are in Christ. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. He let's us all know what we are about to do if it is sin.


    I my self only listen to men with scripture, and even then I check it out. I don't take any mans word for it, where my Salvation is at stake.
    Every scripture has a context, and when I check it out. I look at it in context, to see if what is said is truth. I'm sorry there is no other way to come away with any truth at all, from any man and that includes myself. What ever I post I hope you all check it out and if you find error please point it out. I say this because I know I'm not infallible.
    Here are just some of the scriptures that speak to falling from Grace. and continuing in Christ. Heb6:4-6,4:11, 10:26-29, 12:15-17, Mat 5:13,18:35, 12:31-32, 7:21-22, 21:24,21 2nd peter 2:10,3:17 1st.Tim6:9 Luke8:13, 20:18.
    There is not one verse in the Bible I know of that says God will keep us saved in spite of our selves. Paul says He is convinced there is nothing but later admits we can fall for unbelief. We persevere by growing as long as we are growing everyday in Christ we are saved it's when we become stale like the Laodiceans luke warm that we can be vomited out of the body of Christ.

    As far as sin after you are saved. Be careful, sin has away to lead you off a different way. Many have thought they could sin all they want after being saved. Some I think are only fooling themselves, because we cannot serve two masters.

    Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

    If sin still reins in you, you had better be about the business of doing something about it. On your knees before God. Grace may not abound as far as you think.

    Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    I believe that all sins are forgiven of those who believe in Christ, but even Christ said the Father can place those sins right back on you for not forgiving your brother. Mat18:35 some have tried to tell me that this is a parable. verse 35 is not but rather a comment on the Parable Christ had just told.Read the whole chapter.
    May God bless You all;
    Mike
     
  17. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Hello ILUVLIGHT.

    Shalll we discuss them one at a time?

    Same place you put your's probably!

    Yea it could be trouble but I don't mind going there. I'll include it in the Matthew, lot how's that, if you are agreeable to going through your list with me.

    Grace comes from God and abounds as far as He decides. You should not get me to go to God if you think I need help, it is Jesus you should be pointing out. God has it in for us but Jesus is our advocate.

    See yer tomorrow.

    johnp.
     
  18. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Hello Wes.

    If we ask for forgiveness He is faithful and just... This passage is dealing with Christians not salvation, notice God says, "Just". It is backed by Jesus washing our feet. He told Peter that he did not need a bath, John 13:10; 1 John 1.3, just his feet washing. He had been forgiven and now he needed to be purified. The way to do this is not to say your righteous.I'm not sure what you are saying. Do you sin? Do you sin by breaking a commandment or just by unbelief? Is this the only sin and nothing else is sin? That when we break a commandment of God that is unbelief in action?

    I don't know the point you are making here. Jesus gave up His life, a thing He had authority to do, John 10:18, to pay the penalty for the sins of His people. Only His people. Matt 1:21. He could have been nothing but holy, pure and spotless. He is God.

    I am married. I have three children. All belong in the conversation.
    Love never becomes part of the negotiations with us. We take our love for granted. My love for my wife originates in me as her love does for me. In so far as it is within our power the divorce option does not exist for us. That's love, security, peace and freedom from thinking that one day she will reject me. This is not total security because both of us are sinners. Our Children are secure though. We cannot divorce them. The parents are always the parents to their children regardless of behaviour. No one and nothing can change the fact that I am their father. In the same way nothing can can separate the children from the Father. Rom 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Love is a commitment. If you have modified the meaning of the scripture above using other verses to hold sway in your doctrine then I would say your doctrine is wrong. The scriptures above are absolute at this point. It says that nothing in creation can seperate me from God. Nothing. Nothing, where do you find something in nothing?

    That's just the point. Jesus died for my sins. There is no punishment left for my sins. It is not possible for me to die now. Jesus died for my sins. I will live forever, I must, God said nothing can separate me from Him and I believe Him.
    As for you, I believe you are saying you do not sin. Would I be correct in this?

    I will leave this without comment. Bold but without comment. :cool:

    From the evidence of the state of the world there are many that think God has no feelings. What was Jesus doing then when He had compassion and when He cared for the sick? Was He pretending when He broke down in the garden? How can there be any intelligent being without emotion. How can you achieve beauty without emotion?
    God induces fear in the Godless and induces love in the Godly. 1CH 14:17 So David's fame spread throughout every land, and the LORD made all the nations fear him.

    but it must be exercised or it becomes dead faith!.
    I am English. I am English by nature. I do not need to exercise my Englishness because I am English. In the same way I do not need to exercise my nature to keep my nature. I need no exercise to stay human or Christian. Do you understand that? Not whether you agree with it but do you get my drift?

    I shall assume you do not mean to say that Jesus did not come in the flesh. Nevertheless I shall not miss the oppotunity to say that Jesus did come in the flesh and not the flesh that wrapped itself around Adam before he sinned. Jesus came in the flesh that is common to all, a fallen nature! So that He could not only have everything in common with us, made to be like us in every way, but that He could show that He could overcome it. Romans 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man.
    Praise time I think. Praise the Lord! Rejoice! On me knees man.

    It's complicated and I have not got time at the moment to get my head around it. But I would like to say regeneration takes place in a person and they receive faith. This causes us in some way to become part of the family of God. A change of nature. How far that change changes us I do not know. Physically as well. Christ is fully human and I have His genes in me.

    It had not occurred to me, of course that is irrisistable grace isn't it, thanks? HaHa!

    But that is not love is it? You try to kid us on that you know of a God that loves. We are to reflect that love if we want others to see something worthwhile.

    Ask, seek? Who? Luke 8:8 ..."He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
    Only those in the crowd that had ears to hear. Many called but not many chosen. Notice that not all are called. Just many.
    Mk 8:17 Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened? 18 Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? And don't you remember?
    Rom 11:7 ..."God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."
    He does that to whoever He wants to. He is Soveriegn.

    I will.

    Now this is the fun part! I thought earlier that I should tell you my experience at this point. How much my regeneration moulded my beliefs I am not completely sure about. Much goes on in our heads that we do not realise. To my knowledge my regeration only reinforced what I learnt subsequently.
    I was a member of a biker gang. In the mid sixties we had lots of biker gangs. A bit of mayhem sir? Don't mind if I do, thanks.
    A local Penti Church opened up a Friday night coffee bar. Their reason was to bring a bit of light to a dark hole. Our intention was to keep warm and irritate the Christians as much as they irritated us.
    I fell for it one night. To get the Pastor off my back and to stop him bothering me again I agreed to go and pray just to see if any answer came back. Once I'd done that he could not ask again I thought.
    I put my hands together and closed my eyes and started repeating the Pastors words into the air.
    Some moments into the talking into the air I realised I was talking to another person. That was a shock as I did not believe and then He blew me away man! Flipping good job I was on a chair and not a horse. I knew Him and I know He knew me and I was off like a shot. I wanted nothing to do with Him. That was 1968. He was waiting for me to come home and He brought me home in 1986 screaming and struggling against Him. I had to wade through miracles to get to the Jehovah's witnesses in the hope of finding a loop hole! He had to use all His arrows to bring me down into green pastures. I had been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb in 1968 and had Prodigal'd like mad. I gained experience.
    A door knocker told me a thing I knew. When the final surrender was wrung from me, in love, I had felt nothing like it. At home with my Father. Then he blew me away again and again and then no more highs as high.
    The regeneration was there from praying to Jesus, like they do at those big meeting. The second time I just held my hands up. He regenerates people in many ways.
    An elder from a local Church was approached by the door knocker on my behalf. On his visit I had said to him that I change my mind all the time. Why should I think this would last. He then took me to several passages in the bible that confirmed his words that I was loved with an everlasting life. That I was a part of the body of Christ and He does not perform amputations. It bit deep and still gets deeper. I jumped at it. I heard Him speak. That was His voice I heard and I believed Him when He said, "JN 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

    Never to perish. When God commits Himself He doesn't muck about. That is love, that He first loved us.
    I attended that Church for five years and rose through the ranks to caretaker. A Calvinist Church. He took me to the one place near me that would offer the best view of Himself to me. I was entralled. Joy beyond joy. I own this God. I do not know your God if they are different. If they are different I'd rather die than give up what I have. I have committed myself to the God I know and I will not let Him go. I trust my soul, body and mind to His good care. It is safer than trying to do it for myself. I live because of Him and I live by the truth that He will see me through to completion.

    Yea! I'm not so sure about my works surviving any test but then thank God I'm forgiven. I declare my works to be of no use to me or God. They are only of use to those I help. I do not care less about my deeds because my deeds bring neither glory or condemnation to me though my behaviour does bring honour to my Father.

    It is impossible for a Christian to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

    I'll leave it here for now as I am quite busy. There are things to do. Things for other people. I love being an armchair door knocker! Such a pain to have to get up!

    johnp.
     
  19. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    No Sir, it is not unbelief, it is disobedience.

    If you know that something is sin, then do that sin, you are disobeying, not disbelieving.

    If you do not know that God commands you to believe, then it is not sin if you do not believe. However, if you know the command then do not believe, you are disobeying a command of God!
     
  20. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    I don't know the point you are making here. Jesus gave up His life, a thing He had authority to do, John 10:18, to pay the penalty for the sins of His people. Only His people. Matt 1:21. He could have been nothing but holy, pure and spotless. He is God.</font>[/QUOTE]Jesus died for only one reason, to pay the penalty that sin demands. He died to atone for sin. and we are told that it is for All the sins of the world, and that means all sin from the foundation of the world to now, and into the future for as long as God tarries. With that Work of God Finished, and "sin defeated", man remains unredeemed! So what does it take to redeem man? The work of the FATHER is that we BELIEVE in His only Begotten Son. The work that does that is also finished. He gave us his Word, and His Holy Spirit to illuminate the Word for us. Paul said, "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God". Jesus said, John 3:16 "Whosoever believeth shall not perish but have everlasting life". Jesus said, John 8:51. "In all truth I tell you, whoever keeps my word will never see death."

    Then in John 6 Jesus makes some astounding declarations:
    Did the FATHER in Heaven not Give the whole world to Jesus the Son of God? Doesn't the ONLY Son, also "own" everything that belongs to the FATHER? Did God not create ALL mankind? Therefore Jesus owns ALL mankind. We are all HIS! Even so, many refuse to have Faith in Jesus and the FATHER. Their fate is sealed so long as they refuse to believe.
    Granted, Jesus was speaking to the Jews, but the Jews were not the total sum of what the FATHER gave to the SON. The Jews were, and remain, the FATHER's chosen race!

    "for the life of the world"? That is ATONEMENT for sins of the world....the whole world and nothing but the whole world!
     

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