Paganism??

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Jude, Feb 21, 2003.

  1. Jude

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  2. Baptist Believer

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    What do you think it is paganism?
     
  3. Rev. Joshua

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    Labyrinths are a very old Christian tradition, and many American and European churches have them. Going somewhere to walk a labyrinth is a common exercise in a spiritual formations class.

    Joshua
     
  4. Ps104_33

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    Another example of Christianity getting sucked into the New Age Movement.
     
  5. Johnv

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    No, No, I was wondering about this myself. I thought at first it might be cult-ish. But I did some research both on the web and at my local CHristian bookstore (conveniently located across the street from my office), and here's what I found:

    The Christian church adopted the labyrinth as a symbol quite early on. The oldest known church labyrinth is a converted Roman labyrinth found in the Reparata Church in Algiers (now a museum) dating c the mid 300's AD.

    The purpose of a labyrinth was to provide a person with a path to walk in which to clear one's mind, have some quiet time, and provide solitary prayer time to himself.

    A Christian labyrinth is not a maze. Instead, it's a long path that's condensed in upon itself, thus taking up a minimal amount of space. Have only one entrance, one exit and one path to follow to the centre. Labyrinths do not have intersecting paths or dead-ends and cul-de-sacs. While they do change direction, they are not constructed to challenge the mind, but rather to clear the mind for prayer and meditation.

    Some labyrinths were made of stone, but often they were made of garden hedge plantings. Some simple labyrinths were just lines in marble or wood floors.

    After the medievil era passed, the practice in churches died out, often being replaced with church gardens or cemetaries.

    Now, it's important to not confuse the Christian use of labyrinths with some new age uses of labyrinths or mazes. Some have speculated that those in some new age sects have begun to use labyrinths in a vain attempt to associate old Christian practices with new age practices. But that should also not negate the important part that labyrinths played in CHristian history.
     
  6. CatholicConvert

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    Typical. Anything but what the Church has established as a way to meet with Jesus and git away from it all for a while. You want to meet with Jesus?

    Here He is!!
    [​IMG]

    And He waits in loving silence for you, far from the maddening world, in your local Adoration Chapel. Take time and visit with Him today, and ignore this labirinthical silliness!!

    Mr 14:37 And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?

    Just an hour with Him. What a refreshment whenever I take the time to do so. I should go more often and not let the world crowd Him out of my life.

    Brother Ed
     
  7. Doubting Thomas

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    Speaking of paganism... :rolleyes:
     
  8. 3AngelsMom

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    Speaking of paganism... :rolleyes: </font>[/QUOTE]Exo 20:23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.

    Dan 5:23 But hast lifted up thyself against the Lord of heaven; and they have brought the vessels of his house before thee, and thou, and thy lords, thy wives, and thy concubines, have drunk wine in them; and thou hast praised the gods of silver, and gold, of brass, iron, wood, and stone, which see not, nor hear, nor know: and the God in whose hand thy breath is, and whose are all thy ways, hast thou not glorified:

    Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
    Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
    Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
    Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    Eze 8:16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.

    Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
    Mar 14:22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
    Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

    That bread in that monstrance thing is NOT broken.

    IT IS NOT THE BODY OF CHRIST.

    The Body of Christ was BROKEN.

    If you want to see Jesus, read the Bible.

    God Bless
     
  9. Jude

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    Sorry, Jesus DID say "this is My body." The Church, for 2,000 years, has had various 'explanations' regarding 'how', but nevertheless has stated that the Bread is much-more than mere bread. That being said, back to the topic...

    What I see is a dangerous embracing of paganism. Many of you don't realize that the liberal element in the Episcopal Church has embraced this so-called 'new' spirituality. IT IS DANGEROUS! "By their fruits ye shall know them," Jesus said. Even if I knew nothing about labyrinths, that very-fact that the liberal crowd has embraced this would give me pause. Nevertheless, I will look around for some articles to post, from conservative Christians, about the dangers of the labyrinth.

    A few years ago, at our General Convention in Denver, several conservative Christians were 'prayer walking' around the convention area. Some were praying around a labyrinth that had been placed near the Convention floor. A few charismatic Christians claimed they 'saw' demonic spirits hovering over this labyrinth.

    2 years ago, while visiting Grace Cathedral in San Francisco (a hotbed of liberalism, New Age and the lesbi-gay agenda)I saw a labyrinth in the courtyard and in the back of the Nave. Downstairs, in the 'Christian bookstore', books on wicca, New Age, and 'totem stones' were for sale. Again folks, labyrinths ARE DANGEROUS.

    And what alarms me is the 'willingness' or the 'innocence' or just the plain lack of discernment from a so-called evangelical publishing house to embrace this pagan spirituality.
     
  10. GraceSaves

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    Mom,

    Considering the monstrance is not God, do you really have an argument? Look in the center of the monstrance, and you will see the Bread of Life, Jesus Christ. Unless you can show me some Catholic documentation that says we are to worship the containers of the Body and Blood of Christ, you have no argument.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  11. Doubting Thomas

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    I see a round wafer before which poor gullible people genuflect as if it is the body of Christ, which is absurd since the risen Christ is physically present "whole and entire" at the right hand of the Father.
     
  12. GraceSaves

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    I see a round wafer before which poor gullible people genuflect as if it is the body of Christ, which is absurd since the risen Christ is physically present "whole and entire" at the right hand of the Father. </font>[/QUOTE]So then clarify your position (or rebuke the false understanding presented on this thread) that what we genuflect to and worship is the "wafer" and not the monstrance or chalice, etc. We never worship these things, only the host, which is the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, who IS physically residing at the right hand of the Father but who is also mystically and physically present in the Eucharist, according to His own words, which do not leave Him and return empty, for as He said, "This is my body."

    By the way, I find your username strangely curious given the premise here. Was it not doubting Thomas who had to "see" his Lord's body before He believed? O, Blessed is he who has not seen and yet still believes.

    Blessed is he who believes in our Eucharistic king, who takes the appearance of bread and wine so that we might participate in the heavenly feast of the lamb while still pilgrims on earth.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  13. CatholicConvert

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    Dear Grant --

    I actually feel considerable sorrow for those who genuinely believe as Doubting Thomas does. They believe so because they have trusted teachers who have taught them differently than what the Church of the first and second century was taught by the apostles themselves.

    What a tremendous blessing they miss. I am sure you understand, fellow convert, when I say that I am still excited at the prospect of receiving my Lord every Sunday (and somedays during the week when I can get to noon Mass) and the blessings which have been poured out upon me prove that by this blessed union with Christ, I am experiencing a righteousness which is His blessing by grace to me.

    I personally believe that it is almost a criminal act to teach anything other than the first century truth and to rob people of this joy. It is especially heinous when done by those who have gone through seminary and are familiar with the writings of the Early Fathers, for these men CHOOSE to deny that which was taught in favor of their own ideas, acting as if they are more learned, more noble, and more to be believed than those who learned from the apostles themselves.

    Cordially in Christ,

    Brother Ed
     
  14. GraceSaves

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    Brother Ed,

    I know where you're at. ;) I attend daily Mass four times a week (Tues-Fri), and attend Mass twice on Sundays (though the second time, I lead the catechumens and candidates in Scripture Study during the Liturgy of the Eucharist, so I am not present for it). I was sick on Thurs and Fri of this week, and did not go to Mass, and I'm definitely feeling that spiritual longing! :D

    Keep the faith, brother,

    Grant
     
  15. 3AngelsMom

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    Grant,

    I guess it is fine for you to IGNORE the Word of God in regards to making for yourself a god of gold. But you CANNOT ignore the passage I posted in regards to the BREAD itself.

    Explain IN LIGHT of those 3 passages (which are really ONE) HOW the 'eucharist host' can be the body of Christ, when it, in fact, is an intact ROUND (like the sun that the monstrance shows) wafer that is NOT broken, like the bread that Jesus gave.

    God Bless
     
  16. GraceSaves

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    Mom,

    Are you saying that the shape of the wafer needs to be in the shape of Christ's body? If not, could you specify a shape it should be in? If not, then what does the shape even matter? Usually at daily mass, a round consecrated host is broken into four triangles, and I often receive a triangle. Does that float your boat better?

    As for the breaking of the bread, the host is consecrated upon the words of Consecration, not the breaking (which occurs later).

    Of course, since you reject the real, physical presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist ANYWAY, why are these verses important to you? Are you suggesting that if it was broken, all would be hunky dorey? If not, what ARE you suggesting?

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  17. GraceSaves

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    By the way,

    The sun lights our planet. But guess what: Jesus Christ is the light of the world. The monstrance is designed to imitate the light radiating from Christ, as in His Transfiguration. In place of a false sun god, we have The Light of the World, the SON OF GOD.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  18. rsr

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    I, for one, won't let the pagans have all the good ideas. (Just as the devil shouldn't have all the good music.)

    In urban settings, a labyrinth may be the only place you can be outdoors and yet alone. Jesus went into the wilderness for 40 days and it didn't seem to weaken him.

    It's a novelty, to be sure, for us moderns.

    The fact that charismatics saw demonic spirits above the labyrinth perhaps says something more about them than about the labyrinth.

    IMHO.
     
  19. Doubting Thomas

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    Don't feel sorry for me. I receive the Lord moment by moment through faith. [​IMG] Walking with Christ daily, He continues to do exceedingly abundantly more than I can ask or imagine. I don't have to wait once a week to pretend that I'm eating Christ when I'm in fact eating a wafer that REPRESENTS Christ. (I also don't worry about injuring Christ when I trim the ivy around my trees, because when Christ said that He was the vine, I recognize that here too He was speaking metaphorically. :D )

    I do look forward to partaking of the Lord's Supper with my brothers and sisters in Christ since as often as we eat the bread and drink the cup we proclaim His death til He comes. We do this in REMEMBRANCE of Him just as He commanded us through the apostles, the varying opinions of the Early Church "Fathers" notwithstanding. [​IMG]

    God bless [​IMG]
     
  20. GraceSaves

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    Doubter,

    Are you attempting to insinuate that I do not experience Christ anywhere but in the Eucharist? That is quite clear the insinuation that I am perceiving.

    God bless,

    Grant
     

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