Palin Is Right

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Aaron, Aug 12, 2009.

  1. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,646
    Likes Received:
    223
    Here is the full text of her statement:

    http://www.examiner.com/x-12837-US-...n-evil-and-refers-to-death-panels-on-Facebook

    (I don't have broadband, so I don't go to Facebook.)

    Now who's twisting words? It's the Dems again.
     
  2. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not a fan of the health care bill at all. However, Palin is wrong.

    The common claim is that the current health care bill mandates "euthenasia counselling" every five years. That's completely false. It's a misrepresentation of section 1233 in the bill (whether the misrepresentation is intentional or mistaken is a debate for a different thread).


    http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/euthanasia.asp

    I've also read this section of the bill myself, and can verify that Palin in incorrect. I have no doubt, however, that I will be accused by at least one or two people as being part of the conspiracy, being pro-death, being accused of not reading the bill, and of being a liberal. Let the tomoato flying, tinfoil hat racing, and single bullet theories begin.
     
    #2 Johnv, Aug 12, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2009
  3. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,646
    Likes Received:
    223
    You didn't read her statement. She didn't say what the Dems accuse her of. I highlighted her comment and you still missed it.
     
  4. billwald

    billwald
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Hard cases make bad laws."

    If the government is (taxayers are) responsible to pay for all costs to indefinitely maintain the lives of people with severe Downs then is the government also responsible to provide organ transplants for all sick people in prison? The devil is in the details?
     
  5. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Again, I oppose this healthcare bill. Palin is still wrong. Her "highlighted" comment referrs to a review of coverage. It's no different than a review of coverage currently performed by private healthcare providers. My health care provider regularly reviews coverage to determine what it will and won't cover. The healthcare bill would allow for the same type of coverage review in the proposed public system.
     
  6. alatide

    alatide
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2009
    Messages:
    974
    Likes Received:
    0
    I assume you're referring to the following statement by Sarah palin:

    The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.

    There are no "death panels" proposed in the bill. This is simply her distortion of the facts to gain personal political advantages among her misguided supporters. Where does she find mention of a review of a person's "productivity in society" in the bill?

    Insurance companies today reject coverage for people with preexisting conditions. This is because they're in the business to make money and spending the money to save the lives of these people is not profitable. So, death panels do exist but they exist in the insurance companies that decide whether a person can live or die based on whether they can afford insurance or have a preexisting condition.

    I don't believe in death panels either. That's why we need to discontinue the insurance company death panels and provide broader health care for America.
     
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    The following is the section from the House Bill. As is the case with most stuff written by the Federal Government Bureaucracy it is almost unintelligible. Also this legislation must be implemented by regulations written by other bureaucrats.

    I have bolded certain sections. Now if they don't scare you then you may go quietly into the "gas chambers" or "that good night" however you choose to look at it.

    HR 3200 IH
    SEC. 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION. [Pages 434ff]

    http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090714/aahca.pdf

    (a) MEDICARE.— (1) INGENERAL.—Section 1861 of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395x) is amended— (A) in subsection (s)(2)— (i) by striking ‘‘and’’ at the end of subparagraph (DD); (ii) by adding ‘‘and’’ at the end of subparagraph (EE); and (iii) by adding at the end the following new subparagraph: ‘‘(FF) advance care planning consultation (as defined in subsection (hhh)(1));’’; and (B) by adding at the end the following new subsection:

    ‘‘Advance Care Planning Consultation ‘‘(hhh)(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner described in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning, if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years.

    Such consultation shall include the following:

    ‘‘(A) An explanation by the practitioner of advance care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to.”

    ‘B) An explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses.”

    ‘(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.”

    (D) The provision by the practitioner of a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families with advance care planning, including the national toll-free hotline, the advance care planning clearinghouses, and State legal service organizations (including those funded through the Older Americans Act of 1965). “

    ‘(E) An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are availableunder this title. ‘‘

    (F)(i) Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar orders, which shall include— ‘‘
    (I) the reasons why the development of such an order is beneficial to the individual and the individual’s family and the reasons why such an order should be updated periodically as the health of the individual changes; ‘‘
    (II) the information needed for an indvidual or legal surrogate to make informed decisions regarding the completion of such an order; and ‘‘
    (III) the identification of resources that an individual may use to determine the requirements of the State in which such individual resides so that the treatment wishes of that individual will be carried out if the individual is unable to communicate those wishes, including requirements regarding the designation of a surrogate decisionmaker (also known as a health care proxy).

    ‘‘(ii) The Secretary shall limit the requirement for explanations under clause (i) to consultations furnished in a State—

    (I) in which all legal barriers have been addressed for enabling orders for life sustaining treatment to constitute a set of medical orders respected across all care settings; and ‘‘
    (II) that has in effect a program for orders for life sustaining treatment described in clause (iii). ‘‘
    (iii) A program for orders for life sustaining treatment for a States described in this clause is a program that ‘‘

    (I) ensures such orders are standardized and uniquely identifiable throughout the State; ‘‘

    (II) distributes or makes accessible such orders to physicians and other health professionals that (acting within the scope of the professional’s authority under State law) may sign orders for life sustaining treatment; ‘‘

    (III) provides training for health care professionals across the continuum of care about the goals and use of orders for life sustaining treatment; and ‘‘

    (IV) is guided by a coalition of stakeholders includes representatives from emergency medical services, emergency department physicians or nurses, state long-term care association, state medical association, state surveyors, agency responsible for senior services, state department of health, state hospital association, home health association, state bar association, and state hospice association. ‘‘

    (2) A practitioner described in this paragraph is—

    ‘‘(A) a physician (as defined in subsection (r)(1)); and

    ‘‘(B) a nurse practitioner or physician’s assist-ant who has the authority under State law to sign orders for life sustaining treatments. ‘‘

    (3)(A) An initial preventive physical examination under subsection (WW), including any related discussion during such examination, shall not be considered an advance care planning consultation for purposes of applying the 5-year limitation under paragraph (1). ‘‘

    (B) An advance care planning consultation with respect to an individual may be conducted more frequently than provided under paragraph (1) if there is a significant change in the health condition of the individual, including diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or a hospice program.‘‘

    (4) A consultation under this subsection may include the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining treatment or a similar order. ‘‘

    (5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term ‘order regarding life sustaining treatment’ means, with respect to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to the treatment of that individual that— ‘‘

    (i) is signed and dated by a physician (as defined in subsection (r)(1)) or another health care professional (as specified by the Secretary and who is acting within the scope of the professional’s authority under State law in signing such an order, including a nurse practitioner or physician assistant) and is in a form that permits it to stay with the individual and be followed by health care professionals and providers across the continuum of care; ‘‘

    (ii) effectively communicates the individual’s preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, including an indication of the treatment and care desired by the individual; ‘‘(iii) is uniquely identifiable and standardized within a given locality, region, or State (as identified by the Secretary); and ‘‘

    (iv) may incorporate any advance directive (as defined in section 1866(f)(3)) if executed by the individual.‘‘(B) The level of treatment indicated under subparagraph (A)(ii) may range from an indication for full treatment to an indication to limit some or all or specified interventions. Such indicated levels of treatment may include indications respecting, among other items—
    ‘‘

    (i) the intensity of medical intervention if the patient is pulse less, apneic, or has serious cardiac or pulmonary problems;‘‘(ii) the individual’s desire regarding transfer to a hospital or remaining at the current care setting; ‘‘(iii) the use of antibiotics; and ‘‘(iv) the use of artificially administered nutrition and hydration.’’.
     
  8. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,303
    Likes Received:
    784
    Setting aside the fact that snopes is owned by liberals and not all that objective there is enough here to be concerned about given the advisors Obama surrounds himself with.
     
  9. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Snopes isn't objective? Are you serious?

    I figured someone would dismiss it, which is why I made sure to read that spection of the bill myself, in detail. Snopes is correct, and Palin is wrong. Again, I dont' support the healthcare bill at all. However, the fact is that Snopes is correct on the subject, and Palin is wrong. That's objective fact.
     
  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,303
    Likes Received:
    784


    I figured someone would dismiss it, which is why I made sure to read that spection of the bill myself, in detail. Snopes is correct, and Palin is wrong. Again, I dont' support the healthcare bill at all. However, the fact is that Snopes is correct on the subject, and Palin is wrong. That's objective fact.[/QUOTE]

    Your personal opinion is noted.
     
  11. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Palin is correct and you are incorrect. I don't care about Mr. Snopes.

    When the bureaucrats get through with Section 1233, which for all practical purposes is unintelligible, then we may all join the 50 million the government has already terminated. As I have said before this is one way to solve the Social Security problem. Perhaps it is poetic justice. The generation that stood quietly by while 50 million unborn children were slaughtered may enjoy the same fate.
     
  12. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,303
    Likes Received:
    784
    The problem here is not what you think you can understand when you read it. The problem is what way will it be interpreted later. And who are Obama's advisors? Obama himself said on the campaign trail if you want to know where he might stand look to the people he surrounds himself with. Nothing but marxists
     
  13. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually, you don't like Barbara and David Mikkelson, who are the people that created Snopes.com. I've actually spoken to them (they're fantastic wonderful people) whoa re quite nonpartisan.
    I read it, in detail, myself. It's filled with legaleze, but it's not intelligible. It does not, in any way, imply such thing as what Palin calls a "death panel". If such language existed, I'd be the first to point such a thing out, since I'm flataly against this healthcare bill.

    I suspect you've already decided that "death panel" language exists in the bill, regardless of what anyone says.
    Am I the onyl who's read it??? It's not a matter of what I "think or understand". It's a matter of the FACT (not opinion) that no such language exists in the bill. And again, I'm a staunch opponent of this bill. If such language existed, I'd be the first to point it out.
     
    #13 Johnv, Aug 12, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2009
  14. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,303
    Likes Received:
    784
    Who said the language existed in the bill. Such statements are misleading. But how what is worded is implemented is what is important. And the phrase Death panel is a characterization of what is believed to be the outcome of this legislation. All of this current legislation being debated is under the scrutiny of such characterizations because of what we know to be the underlying philosophy which is that costs in health care will be decided based on the greater good of all rather than the singular good of the patient on a case by case basis. And that is what socialism is. And it is evil.
     
    #14 Revmitchell, Aug 12, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2009
  15. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    16,619
    Likes Received:
    158
    The problem is your hatred of Obama and that makes you think anything he does or will ever do is evil. It does not matter what is done you will find fault.

    You keep using the word Marxist. Have you ever read Marx?

     
  16. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Messages:
    4,466
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree completely.

    I read these attacks by the right here and I wonder how they justify their hatred with the teachings of Jesus. It appears like they are more concerned with a person's relationship with the republican party than they are with a person's relationship with Christ. I guess this is what you get when you trade the Gospel in for political advantage.
     
  17. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2005
    Messages:
    10,407
    Likes Received:
    0
    Palin is a liar, and people are catching on...

    CLICK HERE
     
  18. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    (B) An advance care planning consultation with respect to an individual may be conducted more frequently than provided under paragraph (1) if there is a significant change in the health condition of the individual, including diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or a hospice program.‘‘

    (4) A consultation under this subsection may include the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining treatment or a similar order. ‘‘


    If you think the above will not result in euthanasia then you may be able to read but you are either completely naive or cannot comprehend what the bureaucracy charged with implementing this nonsense is capable of.
     
  19. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    You obviously don't know what "advance care planning" coverage is. I've taken advantage of it three times. The language is almost identical to my own health insurance, and my health insurance most certainly does not cover euthenasia:

    http://www.compassionandsupport.org/pdfs/about/FINAL-2009RevisedACPBooklet-Excellus-Color-Web.pdf


    The next time folks go off equating advanced care planning with euthenasia, they need to know what the heck they're talking about.
     
  20. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,303
    Likes Received:
    784
    What ever this bill may or may not cover has nothing to do with whatever you currently have going on.
     

Share This Page

Loading...