Papal Political Power Play

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by swaimj, Nov 6, 2003.

  1. swaimj

    swaimj
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    Today, the Associated Press ran a story on the meeting, held in the Vatican, between Vladimir Putin of Russia and the Pope.

    The Pope brought out an "icon revered by Russian believers - the icon of the Mother of God of Kazan - which usually hangs in his private chapel." The Pope proceded to "bless the icon." Afterward Putin kissed the icon.

    "The icon, which first appeared in Kazan in 1579, is revered by Russian believers for its purported ability to work miracles, including the rout of Polish invaders from Russia in the early 17th century. It hung in the Kazan Cathedral in Moscow's Red Square and the Kazan Cathedral in St. Petersburg before being taken to the West after the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution.

    A Catholic group bought the icon in the 1970s and later presented it to the Pope".

    Here is the statement in the article that grabbed my attention: "John Paul has said he wants to return the icon as a gift to the Russian people, but he did not give it to Putin to take home".

    What?!?!? He wants to give it, but did not? What prevented him from doing so? If the icon really has mystical powers, and if it historically does belong to Russia, why would he withhold it? Why would he withhold something good when it is in his power to give it?

    The Pope did not give it because he is using the icon for political leverage. He knows that Russians revere it and want it back. He dangles it before them, says he wants them to have it, then withholds it. To get it, they must submit to him. Putin kissed the icon, but the Pope wants him to kiss something else!

    This is a shameless power play on the part of the Pope that is right out of the medieval Papal playbook. It shows how cynically catholicism preys on the poor and weak and victimizes them through their own superstitions.

    Jesus said to his disciples, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

    The Pope's action was not Christ-like. It was a gentile-like power play. Shame on him!


    Here is a link to the article as it appeared in today's Philadelphia Inquirer: http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/nation/7193354.htm
     
  2. thessalonian

    thessalonian
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    Thanks for your analysis of the problem. Problem is it is tainted with your anti-catholic biggotry. Seems the Pope wanted to return it but the Russian Orthodox rejected it because they came and looked at it and determined that it was only 300 years old and therefore a copy of the original. They rejected it.

    http://www.freep.com/news/religion/pope31_20031031.htm

    Blessings
     
  3. MikeS

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    Nothing like jumping to a quick conclusion and seeing the worst in another's actions, eh? Have you always been able to read the pope's mind or is this a recent ability?
     
  4. swaimj

    swaimj
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    Perhaps I am a bigot. On the other hand, perhaps you are so pro-Catholic that you are blind to the truth. Charging me with bigotry does not answer the question I have raised or the charge I have made.

    Here are the facts:

    Despite your article, the icon in the Pope's possession IS revered. Certainly the Pope reveres it since he keeps it in his office and had Putin kiss it. Is the Pope deceived on this matter? Funny that you accept the Russian Orthodox evalation of the icon uncritically.

    Despite the question of authenticity, the Pope said he "wants" to give it. Yet, the Pope did not give it.

    Why?

    That "why" is the central question which calls into question the Popes methods of trying to get his way in the world. Instead of calling me a bigot, try addressing the issues. [​IMG]
     
  5. trying2understand

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    Perhaps the Pope does not consider Putin to be "the people" of Russia.

    Perhaps he wishes to find a way to make sure that it stays in the possession of all the people rather than risking it becoming the property of one man.

    Considering the items the Clintons retained as personal possessions following their time of public service, I would have apprehensions about turning it over to Putin directly.

    Just speculation.
     
  6. Stephen III

    Stephen III
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    Try this on.

    The pope is a religious leader, not a political leader. (Yes occasionally spiritual values must be stressed with political leaders in order for proper policy to be enforced -i.e. partial birth abortion ban).

    The pope's desire is to return it to the people of Russia.
    Putin represents the political system of Russia.
    The current riff is between the Catholic Church in Russia and the Russian Orthodox Church (ROC).
    The gesture of "reconciliation" would therefore be one directed to the Russian Orthodox Church,-not the Russian government.
    Putin was not qualified to accept the gift (being a representative of the govt. not the church. This was obvious in the fact that the article mentions Putin's inability or unwillingness to pre-empt the decision of the Russian Orthodox Church not to invite the Pope to Russia.)
    The envisioned visit would have been a religious reconciliation of sorts not a political reconciliation. The Pope was only showing the icon he hoped to be presenting to the Russian people through the ROC.
    Your bigotry is a seperate matter all together. But something tells me if the Pope had given it to Putin to deliver to the ROC as a gesture of reconciliation, you would have described it as a bribe to get an invitation!
     
  7. thessalonian

    thessalonian
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    You hang on to your bias in the face of proof that refutes what you say. They rejected it because it is not the original. The original was stolen by someone. They don't want the replica but the Pope wants to give it them Why? That it is not the original does not mean that it is of no value. The author of the articles mistates Catholic teaching. The power is not in the icon itself as if it were a charm. The council of Trent resoundingly refutes this as idolatry. The power is in focusing the minds of the faithful on the faith of the mother of God much like Paul's handkercheif was touched and cured the people in Acts 15. It focused the peoples minds on the faith of Paul and in turn they were cured. Also by his faith they were cured. To that end the replica accomplishes the end of what Icon's and relics are for. A three hundred year old replica is still something to be reveared (there you have an out. You can pick on this sentence. I look forward to it with scriptures ready). There is bitterness over the loss of the original which they blame on the Catholic Church (perhaps rightly so as a Catholic may well have stolen it). The replica is all the Pope has. He is looking to mend the wound over this lost icon. It's kind of like a kid looses his dog and you go get him a puppy.

    Let it go bud. Anti-catholicism only clouds your mind in to seeing a skelton under every rock whether there is one there or not. It forces you in to verifiable lies such as Loraine Boetners "council of Valencia" and the Bible being put on the list of forbidden books long before there was such a list. Like Clinton, the next whopper must be bigger than the last.

    God bless I will pray that God will open your heart.

    Ps. I think I am addressing the issues quite well. But once again you will hold to your false notions because .... Well I need not say it again. You are only proving it yourself.

    [ November 07, 2003, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]
     
  8. thessalonian

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    Where'd ya go swami. Did you decide to abandon your theory that you, the one person in the world that discovered "the truth" of the issue of the Pope and the Icon. Not even the Orthodox themselves realized what that evil pope JP II was doing. But you, wise as you are, picked it right out of an internet article. Or perhaps your off writing another anti-catholic book that will make your pockets heavy but is very light on facts and truth.

    Blessings
     

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