Paradise Purgatory - the "other" option

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Jun 21, 2016.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    What if Purgatory were real - let's take the best possible "purgatory" scenario using the "Wonderful Purgatory" model that some here have suggested as our template.

    You arrive in purgatory - on your way to heaven - and you find that you no longer have the devil and demons to tempt you to evil. What is more nobody in purgatory tries to tempt you to sin.

    Whahoo!!

    Better still - you find that you no longer have a sinful nature. No more inner carnal nature driving you toward sinning.

    Whahoo!! again!. This must be heaven!.

    Well then "oops!" you do have a few rough edges... a bit of a "fixer upper" with that tendency to doubt or gossip. And of course "no sinning in purgatory" -- that is not allowed!. Time to brush up on your "commandment keeping". (wouldn't want to show up in heaven still trying to get to "one day without sinning")

    But the good news is that purgatory is designed to get you to "graduate" as the sweetest, kindest - most joyful and unselfish saint -- with nothing but goodwill for all others!! And nobody there is sinning so you are getting lots of help.

    You will spend time in peaceful gardens of unimaginable beauty and you will have mentors encouraging you in worship, songs, praise, sharing Bible stories - and the model of kindness and love for others.

    Well after a few thousand days of this paradise - someone comes up to you and says "hey you are ready for heaven" but you respond --- "I have become so unselfish and so loving of others here - I would like to stay for another 10 days or so just to make sure that I have no chance at all of marring the perfection of heaven with even the remotest possibility of a defective character on my part".... and your wish is granted in this scenario.

    You decide that as a post-grad you would like a "ministry for others" and you decide to go to the gates and "welcome the newcomers" helping others get oriented just as others helped you when you first entered.

    A man pops into view at the gate - and it is clear from the not-so-peaceful look on his face that he has "a few issues". some "whopping defects of character" to be worked out.

    Well this is what Purgatory is for!! You welcome him with open arms and offer to be his guide and help him find the perfect spot for peaceful relaxation and meditation. This is going to be a blessing for both of you.

    But just as you start into your welcome and intro --- he suddenly has a puzzled look on his face - gets a bit dizzy and then POOF!! he is gone!.

    What happened! you ask. One of the other post-grads informs you that this is what happens to people when someone on earth earns a plenary indulgence for them -- an indulgence that actually gets the "funds transfer as promised" --

    "Yeah but that guy had a few unresolved issues - some real rough edges" you are worried.

    "Too bad -- guess the people in heaven will be in for a bit of a shocker" - comes the much anticipated response.

    OR does that other post-grad say --

    "There is an instant-fixer zapper that we have where all of this Purgatory time is not needed they zap you into heaven and all your character defects are instantly gone - they never really needed this purgatory step at all - it was just a form of entertainment to make life more interesting and to create a need for indulgences for those who do not like the idea of this sort of paradise, and besides in the early days it was a good source of revenue to flow into the church from both rich and poor concerned about stories they were being told regarding departed loved ones".

    ============================

    At which point our story ends -- and we begin to see how it is that all of this man-made not-in-the-Bible not-the-gospel fictional story might fly in the dark ages - but not in the light of day -- and not at all with the "punish" and "Same as the fires of hell" verbiage so often associated with "Purgatory".

    To be fair it has three purposes.
    1. initially to make revenue off of the fear generated from stories told the living about the departed.
    2. To emphasize the discretion and good-graces of the RCC in rescuing/saving the already-saved "if the RCC so wishes".
    3. To provide a "wide road" to heaven - where all but the worst "get heaven" no matter their unchristian character defects at the end of their life.
     
    #1 BobRyan, Jun 21, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2016
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  2. BobRyan

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    What sort of "stories" would be generating "fear" here on earth - regarding purgatory and our departed loved ones? -- when did they start telling those stories?

    The Catechism states

    1031: "The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent"



    The Catechism states

    1032: "This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead..."

    Vatican II documents state:

    The Revised and Updated Edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia explains:

    Catholic Encyclopedia. Refers to Purgatory as

    -----next source quote
    Do you believe that those who are going to heaven - must be subjected to the "fires of hell" in Purgatory?
    According to Catholic teaching you cannot go to heaven or purgatory - if you die with mortal sin on your soul - having not been absolved from it in this life.

    For example - what some of them call "mild envy" Coveting is a "venial" sin according to Catholic tradition.
    Murder and worshiping false gods - a mortal sin.

    http://www.followthissite.com/list-of-sins.php

    They say that venial sins do not have to be confessed to your priest.

    ==========================

    From http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=348599&language=en
    "I answer that, nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question. It is probable, however, and more in keeping with the statements of holy men and the revelations made to many, that there is a twofold place of Purgatory. One, according to the common law; and thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory; although the damned being lower in merit, are to be consigned to a lower place. Another place of Purgatory is according to dispensation: and thus sometimes, as we read, some are punished in various places, either that the living may learn, or that the dead may be succored, seeing that their punishment being made known to the living may be mitigated through the prayers of the Church."
    Father Echert


    One Catholic poster - handed me this -


    Note some of the statements made there

    "There are many Catholics who are the first to admit that Scripture is not explicit in teaching Purgatory."

    "the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell ..."

    And

    "Bound for Heaven, souls may experience a “final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.”
     
  3. utilyan

    utilyan
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    Lets start with some things we might share Bob.

    "Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression" Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, vol. 6, p. 1118 (emphasis added).

    "To be redeemed means to cease from sin" Review & Herald, September 25, 1900 (emphasis added). I John 1:8,10



    Catechism:

    1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.


    Entirely different from Hell. That doesn't mean just like it.

    A person could suspect you omitted this portion because it is easier to vilify the catholic church.





    Catechism

    1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83



    The point here is God doesn't cause suffering. You don't have a suffering bill to pay for the sins.


    How many of your SDA member's are now in the very achievable sinless state as prior to Adam's fall and have cease to sin?

    I do not think God is going to push a button to make you sinless, This is a life process and for some a "post-life" process.



    "Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator" The Great Controversy, p. 425 (emphasis added).

    You believe you will stand before GOD on your own without Jesus. You think your ready now? or do you have things to clean up?
     
  4. BobRyan

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    Quoting EWTN is "vilifying the RCC"???

    There is only so much "condemning other Catholics" that you can do before it starts to erode your own footing in that system.


    There is no "purified from sin after death" in either the Bible or in SDA teachings.

    There is no "punishment for sin" after death suffered by the saints - in either the Bible or in SDA teaching - just the wicked being punished in the next life..

    Then you remain purgatory forever - or never went there to begin with.



    "There are many Catholics who are the first to admit that Scripture is not explicit in teaching Purgatory."

    "the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell ..."

     
  5. BobRyan

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    More accurately --


    "Unless by faith we accept the infinite plan of salvation, we are without divine wisdom. But every one who believes in Christ, every one who relies on the keeping power of a risen Saviour that has suffered the penalty pronounced upon the transgressor, every one who resists temptations and in the midst of evil strives to copy the pattern given in the Christ-life, will through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ become a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

    "Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. They testify to their love of Christ by obeying all His precepts, including the one relating to the observance of the Sabbath, the seventh day of the week, the day that He blessed and sanctified, “because that in it He had rested from all His work.” (Genesis 2:3.)
    Manuscript Releases, vol. 8 [Nos. 526-663], Page 99


    Who will 'reach the condition of sinlessness'? -The answer is only Christians, and only by faith. It does not say "all Christians must reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression before they can enter heaven" or "before they die" .
     
  6. BobRyan

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    The Review and Herald
    September 25, 1900
    "Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ's character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. To be redeemed means to cease from sin. No heart that is stirred to rebellion against the law of God has any union with Christ, who died to vindicate the law and exalt it before all nations, tongues, and peoples. Pharisaic self-complacency and bold assumptions of holiness are abundant. There are many who do not see themselves in the light of the law of God. They do not loathe selfishness; therefore they are selfish. Their souls are spotted and defiled. Yet with sin-stained lips they say, “I am holy. Jesus teaches me that the law of God is a yoke of bondage. Those who say that we must keep the law have fallen from grace.”

    Christ says, “Blessed are they that do his commandments.” The heavenly benediction is pronounced upon those who keep the law. “They shall have right to the tree of life,” the Saviour declares, “and shall enter in through the gates into the city.”
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Ellen White's message is about the condition of the saints before they die when it comes to ceasing to be in rebellion against God -- and explains the 'narrow road' of Matt 7 and "Few are on it" - the RCC teaching on purgatory is a door for the "wide road" and deals with fixing the condition of the luke-warm carnal-Christian after they die.

    Very different models.
     
  8. BobRyan

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    so then - care to address the "paradise Purgatory" flaws in the Purgatory doctrine?

    If saints are "tormenting themselves in Purgatory" insisting they not leave 'until done' - then what is an Indulgence?

    If God is torturing the saints in Purgatory - then how would this ever make them more kind and loving toward God and others?
     
  9. utilyan

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    Well this can certainly explains no need of purgatory. If we can enter heaven in sinful state, I wouldn't believe in a purgatory either.

    Revelations 21
    27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

    Give me your take on this verse.^

    Mathew 12
    32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

    This implies there are things to be forgiven in the world to come.
     
  10. utilyan

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    This is not Catholic teaching.

    Quite clearly I have shown the catechism says purgatory is ENTIRELY unlike hell.

    I have shown the catechism explaining God doesn't punish anyone.

    If you are a greedy person the "punishment" involved is self evident in the sinfulness. Purgatory probably involves more self discipline and education.

    Its more akin to the arrival of what you called removal of the sin nature. "Better still - you find that you no longer have a sinful nature.

    We don't believe in sin nature. Sin itself is unnatural.

    Purgatory is that final clean up. Its not a push button clean up forcing your free will to disappear. Its more of you connecting the dots and becoming a saint in the process.


    Our teaching spells it out that God does not torture or punish. Even in hell its a situation where a person has chosen eternal separation from God.

    Eternal separation from God is Hell. There is no love in the soul and distanced from God.


    Do you believe you can be eternally separated from God? You might believe in the judgment God annihilates the evil soul.

    The question then is, is that annihilated soul eternally separated from God?

    If your answer is yes, Congrats you believe in hell.


    HELL explained:

    1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."610 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."
    1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"613 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"614
    1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
    1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."616
    Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."617
    1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;618 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":619
    Father, accept this offering
    from your whole family.
    Grant us your peace in this life,
    save us from final damnation,
    and count us among those you have chosen.620



    Hell is place locked from the inside. A person who can't stand God. Purgatory is more like person loves God but they want help with the things wrong with them.

    Back to purgatory

    Where we might differ is the pace at which God helps. I believe God is going to help you at your own pace. Hitting a button or switch that forcibly overrides your free will is not the way.
    And yet purgatory can happen in blink of an eye. I don't believe you are replaced but you genuinely are regenerated to the proper sainthood intended.

    If you were to take my soul right now and shove me into heaven, it would not be heaven for me.
    I'm not used to expecting everything to go perfect, Therein lies the mystery that I ought to have faith in Jesus Christ to believe everything is going perfect even while I am not in heaven, because your heart should be shouting with joy in the trust of God and Jesus.

    You get into the deeper teachings given in Matthew 6, You shouldn't be worried about tomorrow, shouldn't worry about anything.

    Heaven is a reality reachable now rather then the day that never comes.

    If you were to meet someone who trusted God completely you would be in awe of a sight to behold. Someone who is permanently RELAXED and CONTENT.

    The whole world can be on fire..........and this guy can smile and say God has it covered.

    Its a spiritual maturity beyond the playground of who can beat who up in the universe.
     
  11. DHK

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    Perhaps. But it is unlike anything taught in the Bible, and not only unbiblical, but anti-biblical.
    It is the product of a vain man's imagination and that is all. Since when do people get off at replacing God's Holy Word with vain philosophy?
     
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  12. utilyan

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    DHK do you believe you will still sin in heaven?
     
  13. BobRyan

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    That is the only two choices.

    1. Your own EWTN refutes your statement.
    2. your own RCC documents describe it as punishment.
    3. I gave you the "paradise purgatory" -- option.

    Except that God is the author of Purgatory and your own RCC documents say 'punish'.

    I provided the "self" option in my post - and also gave it in the "Paradise Purgatory" options.

    So then Romans 3 got cut out of the Catholic Bible?

    You keep selecting the "Paradise Purgatory" option while denying it.

    Your own documents are filled with "Torments" and "punishment" and "fire" for both hell and purgatory.


    ========================================================
    HELL explained by the RCC

    1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."610 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."
    1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"613 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"614
    1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
    1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."616
    Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."617

    Huge problem.
     
  14. DHK

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    NO. Will you? Or, are you absolutely 100% sure, if you should die this moment that you would go to heaven?
     
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  15. utilyan

    utilyan
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    That SETTLES it a purgatory occurs BEFORE you set foot in heaven.



    Far as me going to heaven? Only if God commands it, There is a kind of soul who always runs towards the fire not away from it. If I see Hell with souls in it, I have to go there and get them out.
     
  16. utilyan

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    The catechism is FULL torments and EVILs and ERRORs...........BUT you never get around to actually naming one?

    Point to the line give me its number, tell me what is wrong with it.



    PS. Hows the MURDERING CHILDREN with abortion going? You proud SDA churches murder children right? Wow when we mention this you shrivel up and go tight.

    I'll make a deal with you I'll give up the idea of purgatory if you quit killing our innocent children at the SDA HOSPITALS. I'll even worship on Saturday, will you please stop killing children in your hospital?
     
  17. DHK

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    Why should it settle it? I may sin. However,
    1. At the time I was saved, God forgave ALL of my sins: past, present and future. God looks upon me as having no sin whatsoever.
    2. At that time he justified me (just as if I never sinned). IOW, when God looks down upon me, he doesn't see the sinful DHK, he sees me clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. It is Christ's righteousness that He sees, not mine. And Christ is perfect, sinless. Thus God sees no sin.

    Purgatory is not in the Bible. It is a man-made doctrine invented by those who don't have a clue what the Bible teaches about salvation. And that is very evident when their Catechism teaches that the new birth means baptism. How lame!

    Only if God commands it??
    God commands all to come to him.
    Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
     
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  18. utilyan

    utilyan
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    I think you will stop sinning in heaven, I don't think they going put a fake mustache and a mere sinless name tag.

    Philippians 1
    6For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.




    Far as Heaven. If the whole universe was in heaven and you were the only soul not there, I'm coming to look for you. I'll drag you out of hell by your feet if I have to.

    Matthew 16
    18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    Gates of hell doesn't mean Gates of heaven. If you picture this fortress church being attacked by evil who can't get in, you need read it again.

    We the church are on the offensive laying siege on the gates of hell, THEY WILL OPEN. And then we going drag everyone out.

    The very Second God shows us both heaven and hell, before he can even ask "why shoul I....!?" Me and my guys are bum rushing hell, like hell-bound hellhounds, with such fury the angels gonna step aside.

    Where people are in trouble we have to be there, leave no one behind.
     
  19. DHK

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    That is true. I sin. And not until I get to heaven will I stop sinning for I still have an old nature.
    But God has forgiven all that sin. I know that I am on my way to heaven and there are no stops between here and heaven. As far as God is concerned and my salvation is concerned my sins "are buried in the deepest sea," "to be remembered no more," "under the blood of Christ," and as Paul says:
    Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
    --As far as salvation is concerned, there is no condemnation to the believer; none, nada, zero, zilch. He can never lose his salvation. He will never be condemned.
    Who is "we" the church. The RCC has nothing to do with the churches that Christ associates himself with. The RCC preaches "another gospel" and therefore, according to Gal.1:8 is accursed.

    Good intentions are good, but good intentions can't get you to heaven. Only Christ can do that.
     
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  20. BobRyan

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    1. I know of not one SDA church that has murdered a child - but if "making stuff up" is your solution ... well then.. No SDA congregation/board/admin/by-law has any control at all over any hospital. At the denomination level the decision was made to have the hospitals run as their own separate entity. No SDA congregation is tasked with hiring or firing or managing the SDA hospital organization. By contrast we have LATERAN IV and the decree to 'exterminate heretics'.

    2. Your own EWTN your own RC Encylopedia make this point about torture and flames of hell - punishment in Purgatory - you cannot demonize your own Catholic teaching organization then condemn anyone who quotes it as being a Catholic source.


    from - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
    Purgatorial FIRE
    .... In the West the belief in the existence of real fire is common. Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37, no. 3) speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P.L., col. 397). Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and he adds "that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life" (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1). Following in the footsteps of Gregory, St. Thomas teaches (IV, dist. xxi, q. i, a.1) that besides the separation of the soul from the sight of God, there is the other punishment from fire. "Una poena damni, in quantum scilicet retardantur a divina visione; alia sensus secundum quod ab igne punientur", and St. Bonaventure not only agrees with St. Thomas but adds (IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1, q. ii) that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life; "Gravior est omni temporali poena. quam modo sustinet anima carni conjuncta". How this fire affects the souls of the departed the Doctors do not know, and in such matters it is well to heed the warning of the Council of Trent when it commands the bishops "to exclude from their preaching difficult and subtle questions which tend not to edification', and from the discussion of which there is no increase either in piety or devotion" (Sess. XXV, "De Purgatorio").

    From http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=348599&language=en

    "I answer that, nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question. It is probable, however, and more in keeping with the statements of holy men and the revelations made to many, that there is a twofold place of Purgatory. One, according to the common law; and thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory; although the damned being lower in merit, are to be consigned to a lower place. Another place of Purgatory is according to dispensation: and thus sometimes, as we read, some are punished in various places, either that the living may learn, or that the dead may be succored, seeing that their punishment being made known to the living may be mitigated through the prayers of the Church."

    Father Echert
     
    #20 BobRyan, Jun 28, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016
    • Funny Funny x 1

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