Paradise

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by standingfirminChrist, Mar 30, 2008.

  1. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
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    Where do we get the teaching that Abraham's Bosom and Paradise were the same place?

    I only find three instances of Paradise in the Word of God. Luke 23:43, 2 Corinthians 12:4 and Revelation 2:7.

    In Paul's Epistle, it is clear that Paradise is in the third heaven. The man was 'caught up into the third heaven'. He did not descend into the earth, but rather ascended.
    Did Jesus take this man to Abraham's Bosom as many have taught through the years? or did He carry him up into the third heaven?
     
  2. TCGreek

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    Or should we understand differently as to location after the cross?

    At any rate, I never thought of it that way before, that Jesus took the thief to heaven. That's a good possibility.

    But you're correct about where our understanding of Paradise should be.
     
  3. standingfirminChrist

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    To carry it further...

    To day thou shalt be with me in Paradise.

    To day... this day.

    But Jesus had not ascended to the Father three days later from what He told Mary at the tomb.

    Is it possible He ascended into the third heaven to deliver the thief to Paradise 'To day' and then returned to the earthen soil to set captivity captive that were in Abraham's Bosom?

    Just a few things I have been reflecting on the last couple hours.
     
    #3 standingfirminChrist, Mar 31, 2008
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2008
  4. zrs6v4

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    I am not sure so I guess I am asking a question with what I have been taught.

    Just as the bible talks about thieves in "tartarus" hebrew for prison as a holding cell or solitary confinement until judgement.
    Paradise is the holding place for the children of God until Jesus returns and they are judged according to there good works.
     
  5. standingfirminChrist

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    No holding place for the saved. Absent from the Body, present with the Lord.

    As I have shown, Paradise is up in the third heaven, not in the earth.
     
  6. zrs6v4

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    I always had this thought that when we die its as if everyone who ever walked the earth dies at once, or appears at once in front of God. So to explain this maybe when we die the people we think we are going to leave behind we are not leaving at all and they will be there already. If you think of it in scientifical terms to better understand, if heaven is in this far off dimension and time were the essence it would take a million years to get there so a million years would pass on the earth until we got there, but to us there is no more time and the second we depart from earth we arrive at heaven. So maybe in you second post further Jesus new all would be done when the thief got to paradise and he would already be there with him because time is no more and heaven is already complete. I had a connection with my pastor at church on this and when he explained it I finished it for him and it was interesting becasue I thought of it myself two weeks prior to him saying it. but this contradicts my first explanantion. So to just add a little further, the second we show up in heaven is the same second that adam shows up. but who knows
     
    #6 zrs6v4, Mar 31, 2008
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  7. LeBuick

    LeBuick
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    Are you sure about this?

    Lk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

    I know they laid his body in the grave just as they laid the thief's body in a grave. Jesus had previously taught us the dead could still live.

    Jn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
    26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

    I do often wonder about paradise. I don't believe in purgatory but I also believe the "place" is still being prepared until the bridegroom comes for his bride. So where did the thief go that day?

    The only understanding we had from Christ was when the beggar died. He was carried by angelic pallbearers to the bosom of Abraham.
     
  8. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
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    I know Jesus told the Father that He was commending His Spirit into His hands, but He did say to Mary on the first day of the week:

    John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


    Had He asecended to the Father before speaking to Mary, He would not have told her He had not yet ascended.
     
  9. LeBuick

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    So I take it you don't subscribe to the don't cling to me story, what was the difference between Mary and Thomas whom He said just the opposite.
     
  10. Allan

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    Yes, with the NT saints but not so with the old.
    Their sins (the OT saints) had been covered but not removed, only the blood of Christ is able to remove sin and they were waiting for that very moment.
    Could they stand in the presence of a holy God with their sin still with them (ableit covered by the blood of animals)?
    If no man can stand before God with sins then where were they as they awaited redemption through the blood Christ, which takes 'away' their sins.?

    Paul's Paradise is referenced in the third heaven AFTER the resurrection has taken place.


    Editted in: then we have to answer the question concerning 'where' did Jesus preach to these 'spirits' that were in prison. If He was in His Fathers presense where is the prison in heaven located?
     
    #10 Allan, Mar 31, 2008
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  11. blackbird

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    When Jesus died----His spirit departed into His Father's presence

    What He told Mary was a comment AFTER His resurrection---becoming complete in body, soul, and spirit He had not yet ascended into Heaven

    There's a difference between departing SPIRIT(incomplete without resurrection of body) into the Father's hands and a ascending BODY(complete body, souil, and spirit after resurrection) into the Father's hands
     
  12. Allan

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    I think the problem with the above is this LeBuick:
    Jesus stated "I have not yet accended to my Father".

    I think the cling aspect does not negate what Jesus said about 'not yet accending' but at the same time it amplies the resurrection message of His soon return and not to be bound to earthly things but pursue spiritual.
     
  13. Allan

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    Interesting point, but we have to remember also that Jesus allowed the disciples to 'touch him' before He had yet accended to the Father. They placed their fingers into his hands and sides.
    I don't dismiss the possiblity that Jesus went to the Father but then again there is scripture (as I stated earlier) that says Jesus went and preached to the 'spirits' in 'prison'. So at some point Jesus left the Fathers presense to preach to those spirits. Is there a prison in heaven or in the presense of God? No, so where did Jesus have to go to do this? Somewhere that was not in the Fathers direct presense. The only thing scripture declares that is spiritually like a prison is 'hell'.
     
    #13 Allan, Mar 31, 2008
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  14. standingfirminChrist

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    Not sure what to get there other than he told Thomas to touch him. We must also look at the fact that Scripture does not say that Thomas actually touched Him.

    I believe there are two possibilities here:

    1) Jesus spoke the very words that Thomas had stated reminding Thomas of what he said and Thomas, at that point believed... without even touching the Lord physically.

    or

    2) Jesus may have ascended to the Father some time after telling Mary He had not and before telling Thomas to touch Him.

    I lean toward the first explanation.
     
    #14 standingfirminChrist, Mar 31, 2008
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  15. standingfirminChrist

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    We do know Abraham's Bosom is a place separate from hell... (Lazarus saw it afar off)

    It was a place of light, while Scripture declares hell to be a place of outer darkness.

    Scripture declares Lazarus to be comforted while the rich man was in torment.

    Lazarus could not have been in hell.

    The question remains... Where was the prison Lazarus was in? Where is Abraham's Bosom?
     
  16. zrs6v4

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    I have never heard of Abraham's Bosom. sorry to keep getting in this, but for those of us who are unaware of that term can anyone note some scripture talking about this place? I do know in the new testament it speaks of the rich man who saw lazarus with Abraham but is there anywhere else? thanks a bunch.
     
  17. zrs6v4

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    1 Peter 3:18-22 is where it talks about spirits in prison. I would type it out, but I have to run.. keep this going so I can ask questions in study on Wednesday. thanks
     
  18. standingfirminChrist

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    Luke 16 is the only place that "Abraham's Bosom" is mentioned.

    Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
     
  19. Rex77

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    Here is how I see events, as I always say I have been known to be wrong.


    * Hell is in the lower parts of the earth.

    Eze 32:24 There [is] Elam and all her multitude round about her grave, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, which are gone down uncircumcised into the nether parts of the earth, which caused their terror in the land of the living; yet have they borne their shame with them that go down to the pit



    * Paradise was alongside hell so the rich man could see Lazarus in paradise
    (Abrahams bosom)

    Lu 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    Lu 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence

    * When Jesus died he went to paradise. In centre of the earth.

    Lu 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.



    * During that time in he also went to hell across the gulf that divided the two. (And I believe he got the keys of hell. And also left our sin there)

    1Pe 3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
    1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
    1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.



    When he rose 3rd day Many not all saints arose and went into the city

    (We don’t know what happened to them. Wether like Lazarus they
    lived for a while and died again, Or went with Christ to heaven)

    Mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection,

    * The rest of OT saints Jesus took to heaven transporting all of them.

    Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

    * As Paul went there later and it is now in the 3rd heaven

    2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


    Before he let anyone touch him he took the blood and OT saints to heaven.

    Jesus was to ascend to the father as our high priest, as in OT the priest was not to be defiled by touching anyone before going into the Holy of Holies.

    So Jesus our High priest was about to take his blood to heaven to sprinkle it on the mercy seat in heaven then return to earth . that is when the others could hold him.


    Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

    Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel

    Heb 9:23 ¶ [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

    Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

    Once this was done the women could touch him, which would take the Lord about 2 seconds or less.


     
  20. standingfirminChrist

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    Abraham's Bosom was not alongside hell. It was afar off... a great distance from hell.

    There was a great gulf between the two places...
     

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