Parallel between Catholic and Charismatic

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Dr. Bob, Jun 7, 2003.

  1. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    We openly condemn the Catholics for their practice of crucifying Christ anew each day in the mass.

    Wonder why Charismatics are not likewise condemned for practicing Pentecost anew each day?
     
  2. Major B

    Major B
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/6069.jpg>

    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    2,294
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually, they don't practice Pentecost. The tongues at Pentecost were "dialects" understood by native speakers. And, 3,000 got saved in one service!
     
  3. Tonya R

    Tonya R
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2003
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    What I can't for the life of me figure out is why the truth on tongues hasn't gotten out more?
    The tongues were genuine human languages, yet unknown to the one speaking. This seems so simple, yet Charismatics refuse to listen to anyone on this.
     
  4. donnA

    donnA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    23,354
    Likes Received:
    0
    Becaue false teachers have them decieved to believe lies. They can't even see scripture anymore. It shows you just how effective satan can be. It should keep us on gaurd to watch what we beleive and to test the spirits. But some get angry with you when you mention testing the spirits becasue it may reveal more then they want to know, or it may reveal them wrong. Personal opinion too many times is given presdence over scripture for some.
     
  5. Jim1999

    Jim1999
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    0
    The simple truth is, some people just want more. The plain word of God is not sufficient to satisfy what God has said and the people believed. All through scriptures we read about the people of God asking for evidence,,for proof,,,,,,yea, hath God said?

    We have great difficulty aligning the emotional and intellectual qualities of redemption. Some of us fear emotion, and others fear the intellectual aspects, then some of us put undo emphasis on both.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  6. Abiyah

    Abiyah
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/abiyah.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,194
    Likes Received:
    0
    Although my old church was not charismatic, it
    had some of the characteristics of typical
    charismatta. When I left it, I realized that I had
    been addicted to the charismatic-like aspects of
    it: </font>
    • the need for human approval and
      striving for it</font>
    • leadership's approval was equal to,
      and defined
      , our God's approval</font>
    • excitement, religious highs, religious
      experiences</font>
    • Whatever was spoken from the pulpit,
      no matter how preposterous, was
      accepted as all right; if it was in error,
      one kept one's mouth shut. (This one
      added because it made the ones above
      acceptable.)</font>
    Away from there and finally at peace, I began to
    realize that our God is enough. What a difference!
     
  7. Tonya R

    Tonya R
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2003
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    Y'all are absolute right. Hitting the nail right on the head. I believe that the refusal to give up Charismata is rooted in spiritual pride. And this type of pride is blinding. And needless to say , it is a sin.

    Tonya
     
  8. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Another thought might be that it is NOT "spiritual pride" but rather "spiritual blindness".

    False spirits, counterfeiting Pentecost, are blinding people to the truth. They endorse a man-made (feeling based) salvation of works, keeping that salvation by works, and never being sure.

    I wonder if such are really, truly born again? They seem so spiritual, but it is not much different than a well-meaning Hindu or Moslem.
     
  9. Tonya R

    Tonya R
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2003
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    How true Dr Griffin, how true. The road is paved with good intentions.

    Tonya
     
  10. Dan Todd

    Dan Todd
    Expand Collapse
    Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    14,452
    Likes Received:
    0
    Quote from Dr. Bob:
    It seems to me that you are also describing the arminian who goes to the altar time and time again to be saved time and time again.
     
  11. Tonya R

    Tonya R
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2003
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    I suspect that the arminian that keeps going to the altar has not learned that forgiveness takes place in the mind of God; preferring to believe that forgiveness takes place in the heart of man. Hence when the arminian no longer feels saved, then a return trip is needed.

    Tonya
     
  12. Abiyah

    Abiyah
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/abiyah.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,194
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think I have fallen into a trap here, speaking only
    for myself. It is easy to converse this way when
    we all agree. We can all pat one another upon the
    back and say, "That's right! We're right! We have it
    all nailed down! We're good!" Perhaps this should
    be taken to a place where we have a little
    contention, a little disagreeing, so that we can think
    this through, using the knowledge of those who
    disagree.
     
  13. Kiffin

    Kiffin
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2001
    Messages:
    2,191
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think we should beware not to but all Charismatics in the same corner. They are a very diverse group. Probably as diverse as Baptists. Most are Arminian but Arminianism is well within the bounds of Orthodox Christianity (I can't believe a Calvinist like me is saying this! :eek: )Arminianism despite it's errors does not teach you can be saved today, lost tommorrow, then saved again. Many do follow the Word of Faith heresy of health and wealth(Hinn, Price, Copeland, TBN etc..)but not all.

    Not all teach speaking in tongues is the sign of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit but just believe it is a gift that is still given (The Vineyard churches) and Charismatics also have a few Calvinist among them such as Dr. Wayne Grudem, Samual C. Storms (Yes there are Calvinist Charismatics! :eek: ) and even one Calvinist Charismatic denomination (P.D.I. http://www.pdinet.org/) and some Southern Baptist churches are fully Charismatic in theology but still teach Once Saved, Always saved(James Robison, Ron Phillips are Southern Baptists)

    So, No Charismatics and Pentecostals (Not referring to the Modalist Pentecostals such as the United Pentecostal Cult) though we may disagree with them on many things are not in the same league as Catholics but generaly teach the truth of the Holy Trinity, Salvation by faith in Christ alone, Deity of Christ etc...

    [ June 08, 2003, 01:20 AM: Message edited by: Kiffin ]
     
  14. Abiyah

    Abiyah
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/abiyah.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,194
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am wondering why the UPC is listed as a cult.
    What do you believe makes it a cult? I ask not to
    criticize but to understand.

    I call my old church a cult because the leaders
    took a god-like stance, not to be questioned, not
    to be second guessed, always "'right"' no matter
    how wrong they were, always getting special
    treatment, adding rules to salvation that are not in
    the Bible, saying that they were the only ones with
    the whole truth, and encouraging praise for
    leadership and the church in general that belonged
    to our God.
     
  15. Major B

    Major B
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/6069.jpg>

    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    2,294
    Likes Received:
    0
    The UPC is considered a cult because it is anti-trinitarian. Its official view on the Trinity is the same as that of Praxas and Sabellius (3rd century heretics) and is known as Modalism. (God shows different "faces" at different times, but there is only one personality within the Godhead).

    Secondly, the UPC official stance on salvation is that of Baptismal Regeneration, that is, that a person is regenerated in the waters of baptism.
     
  16. Abiyah

    Abiyah
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/abiyah.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,194
    Likes Received:
    0
    I could be wrong, but I don't think they believe in
    such a baptism. ???
    </font>
    • I wonder who decided that a parti-
      cular belief regarding the Godhead
      constituted a cult?</font>
    • From what I gather, there are many
      differing understandings of the Godhead
      within Christianity; why is this one singled
      out as cultish?</font>
    • The R.Catholic church has a particular
      understanding of the Godhead; would it,
      alone, make the R.Catholic church a cult?</font>
     
  17. Pete

    Pete
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2002
    Messages:
    4,345
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Parallel between Catholic and Charismatic"

    hmmm lets see, sections of both think they are the "One True Church"?? :eek: [​IMG] Dunno why, everyone knows it's BAPTISTS! :D ;)

    *...Pete again reaches for flak jacket...* :D

    Pete
     
  18. Major B

    Major B
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/6069.jpg>

    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    2,294
    Likes Received:
    0
    Historically, the broadest circle of Christianity drew the line at the Trinity. From the early 300s on, no Trinity, no Christian. This is so broad that it is a shared view of Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant, and Free Churhces (baptist, etc.). The particular view of the Godhead that the UPC holds has been considered by Christians to be heretical and cultic since about 260 AD.

    It is an article of faith in the UPC church that salvation occurs in the waters of baptism.

    Among evangelical Christians, the additional lines that determine true Christianity are Biblcal infallibility, Justification by Faith, Salvation by Grace, and the Person and Work of Christ (the Virgin Birth, Sinless Life, Substitutionary Atonement, Bodily Resurrection and Ascension, and Visible, bodily, return of Christ).
     
  19. Abiyah

    Abiyah
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/abiyah.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,194
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, 8o) I believe all the things you list, but I
    cannot claim I understand the Godhead. I cannot
    say that I understand Him and that I know the
    trinity of Him. He is a mystery to me. He is
    beyond my pea-sized brain. I cannot claim I
    have His being in time and space nailed down to
    a science and that I understand it. Would that
    make me cultish? I ask because I wonder what
    is thought of those who are not so sure of His
    Being.
     
  20. Major B

    Major B
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/6069.jpg>

    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    2,294
    Likes Received:
    0
    From the Official UPC statement of faith:

    We believe in the Bible standard of full salvation, believing on the Lord through repentance, baptism in water by immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost with the initial sign of speaking with other tongues as the Sprit gives utterance.
    This is the most extreme view of baptismal regeneration to be found.


    This is a classic statement of modalism, fully in agreement with the Sabellian Heresy of the third century.

    Contrast this with The Abstract of Principles:

    III. The Trinity.
    God is revealed to us as Father, Son and Holy Spirit each with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence or being.
     

Share This Page

Loading...