Pardon by Grace or by Works?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Apr 13, 2012.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
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    Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

    Here is the command from the prophet Isaiah to the wicked showing them the way to receive a pardon from their sins. Notice that the commands are direct and involve the individual doing something to receive a pardon. Was the prophet preaching a pardon via works? Why or why not?

    We have had many on this list that would say those in the OT received grace by the same means those in the NT receive grace. The prophet seems to be at antipodes with the 'faith alone' message we hear so many proclaiming. Again was the prophet preaching a works based pardon? If not why not?
     
    #1 Heavenly Pilgrim, Apr 13, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 13, 2012
  2. billwald

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    What has that to do with gentile Christians? In the OT there was no sacrifice for a felony unless your name was "David."
     
  3. annsni

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    Regularly God showed us in the Old Testament that when people were faithful to Him and followed His laws, He was merciful to them. When they were not, He was not.

    I love what it says in the passage just a few verses later:

    10For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven
    and do not return there but water the earth,
    making it bring forth and sprout,
    giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
    11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
    it shall not return to me empty,
    but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
    and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.
     
  4. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Was God's mercy merited by the faithfulness and obedience of the ones that were faithful and obedient? Why or why not?
     
  5. annsni

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    It is never merited because it is still sinful. Each person who was faithful was a sinner and therefore fell short of the glory of God. There is nothing God owes man at all - everything He gives us is by His grace.
     
  6. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: So being obedient is sinful? Can one be counted faithful and unfaithful at the same time? Can one be obedient and not obedient at the same time? Can a fountain bring forth both bitter and sweet water at the same time? Can one love God and be disobedient at the same time? Can one serve two masters, sin and God at the same time?
     
  7. annsni

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    Even doing everything right can be sinful if it is done out of a heart that is not turned towards God. Remember that the Bible tells us that all of our righteous deeds are as filthy rags!

    But you see, you are speaking of serving two masters but that is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about acts done before salvation. Acts done before Jesus' death when there was a different covenant before God.
     
  8. The Biblicist

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    Falsehood can always be attributed to jerking texts out of their context and using them according to ones own personal bias. Let's place this text back into its proper context:

    Isa. 55:1 ¶ Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
    2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
    3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

    This is the introduction that precedes the text. Here is a purchase that is obtained without money. What kind of purchase can be obtained without money and without price??????

    This is a purchase directed only to those who "thirsteth." He is talking about the "sure mercies of David" or what David described in 2 Sam. 23:5

    2Sa 23:5 Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.

    1. Although my house be not so with God = not without sin
    2. Yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant - unconditional salvation
    3. Ordered in all things - finished work provided by God
    4. for this is all my salvation - complete propitiation
    5. and all my desire - Nothing else as the object of faith
    6. although he make it not to grow - certain confident expectation of salvation to come even though presently it does not yet appear (like a seed planted under ground out of sight and yet certain to appear).


    This is not only descriptive of David's PERSONAL salvation but in Psalm 89 it is descriptive of David as the type of Christ and the salvation provided by Christ for all the promised seed.

    Psa. 89:2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.
    3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
    4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
    5 ¶ And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.........27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
    28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
    29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
    30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
    31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
    32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
    33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
    34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
    35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
    36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
    37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

    Who are his seed that shall endure forever? Those who fit the same six point outline in 2 Sam. 23:5. Those who "thirsteth" for salvation in Isaiah 55:1-3. Those who buy salvation "without money and without price."
     
    #8 The Biblicist, Apr 14, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 14, 2012
  9. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Biblicist, God instituted a sacrificial system in the OT. Was that a system of salvation by works?
     
  10. Yeshua1

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    Ask Apostle paul!
    he made it clear that the Holy Spirit was received by believing/faith alone, NOT by any works/acts done in the Flesh!

    And that we were to grow up and mature in christ by faith, NOT by works of the flesh!
     
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Yeshua1, was the OT sacrifical system a system of 'works salvation?'
     
  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    DHK, close whatever thread you so desire, but you have some explaining to do. In the OT God instituted a sacrificial system that involved many things one must do in order to gain forgiveness of sins and to establish a relationship with Him. My question to you is, was that system of works, if not why not? Were there works involved, 'without which' one could not see the forgiveness of sins? Scriptures please.

    I have heard the comment over and over that if involves works (acts of the will) it cannot be by grace. So, again, did the 'works' God commanded of those in the OT negate the fact that salvation then and now is by grace?
     
  13. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Let the reader be reminded of what DHK and others on this list proclaim I teach heresy for believing.

    I believe Scripture is clear that God demands of man to repent of ones sins and to exercise their will in faith trusting in the shed blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse them from their sins, 'without' which none will enter into a hope of eternal life. For those Scriptural demands by God, I stand accused in their eyes.
     
  14. Yeshua1

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    Those saved under the old Covenant system was thru faith they placed into the Coming Messiah promised to them by God...

    The sacrifices never saved any one, its those who placed their hope and trust in what they prefigured, lamb of God tocome, that God saved!
     
  15. DHK

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    Romans 4:1-2 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
    --Did Abraham's works justify him? No.

    Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    --For all that Abraham did, he was justified by faith and faith alone.
     
  16. DHK

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    You are wrong. What they did, did not bring them forgiveness of sins.
    Take for example the time when Moses was commanded to make a bronze serpent on a pole. Making it didn't do a thing. They were commanded to look upon it. Those who looked upon it were healed or saved physically. They had to have faith. They looked in faith to the serpent on the cross, just as we look in faith to Christ on the cross. It is not in the doing, it is in the faith that is displayed.
    There were many times their sacrifices were rejected, and that from the beginning of time. Cain's sacrifice was rejected. The sacrifice had to be offered in faith. It wasn't the sacrifice per se that saved. It wasn't going through the motions. It was the faith in God that saved. Read Hebrews 11.
    Salvation is always by grace. Grace and works are not compatible.

    Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
     
  17. annsni

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    Hebrews 9 and 10 tells us a lot - specifically verse 4 in chapter 10 that states "For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins."

    None of these "works" imparted salvation.
     
  18. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Yeshua, so you believe one did not have to follow the sacrificial system of works at all to receive forgiveness of sins and to be in a right relationship with God in the OT subsequent to such a system being instituted?
     
  19. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Why do you twist such examples? You admit that they were commanded to 'look', and looking takes an act of the will. They could have remained in their tents have all the (what you would denote as faith) faith in the worl, but until they formed and act of the will to LOOK, would have faith saved them? No way. If they failed to look they died.

    Faith in faith will save no one. Until one completes the command, whatever it is God demands, whether to look or to repent, they will see no results from their faith. 'Faith without works is DEAD being alone.' Dead faith will save no one.

    Certainly one could say they were saved by faith 'in a sense', yet faith that saves always has corresponding action. In the example that you have given, the act of 'looking' was commanded, 'WITHOUT WHICH' they would have, ( and as I recall some did,) die. Lack of faith and die? In a sense maybe, but it was a lack of obedience that caused one to die. I do not believe Moses even mentioned faith did he? I am not saying it was not involved, but God was clearly after the obedience.

    Preach 'faith alone' all you so desire, but if it is not coupled with obedience to whatever may be the God given command depending on what it is by faith one is to receive, it is DEAD being alone and will save no one. Faith takes and act of the will in every case, and that without exception. God designed it that way.

    DHK, great illustration by the way!:thumbs:
     
  20. The Biblicist

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    Saved versus lost has to do with the spiritual condition of an individual whether they lived before or after Calvary. Cain participated in the sacrificial system as he offered up the fruits of his own labors and they were rejected. Thus participation in the sacrificial system had no effect upon the spiritual condition of the participants.

    Like all external ordinances they were EXTERNAL to the spiritual condition of the participant. Abel participating in the sacrificial system not in order to have his spritual condition changed from lost to saved but as a witness that he was already righteous by faith in what the offered lamb symbolized, thus obtaining n EXTERNAL witness of his internal faith.

    Heb. 11:4 ¶ By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

    Hebrews 10:1-4 speak directly to the efficasiousness of the sacrificial system denying that participation in these EXTERNAL ordinances ever could deal with INTERNAL sin:

    Heb. 10:1 ¶ For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
    2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


    Therefore participation in the EXTERNAL sacrificial system and/or any EXTERNAL ordinances could not deal with the INTERNAL conscience defiled by sin or ever remove the sins that defiled the conscience.

    Instead, it was designed to be an EXTERNAL WITNESS of "things to come" that are fully described immediately in verses 5-18 or the Person and work of Jesus Christ which alone was the proper object of faith, which faith secured the remission of sins between Genesis and the cross:

    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    Hence, the same gospel was PREACHED in between Genesis and the cross that was preached after the cross only that faith looked forward to the cross as we look back:

    Heb. 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

    In regard to external divine ordinances Paul demands that justification by faith was already obtained PRIOR TO participation in such divine ordinances:

    Rom. 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

    Hence, NO EXTERNAL ordinance or NO PARTICIPATION in external ordinances procure INTERNAL change of spiritual status before God. External ordinances are only for obtaining an EXTERNAL WITNESS that the internal spiritual condition is ALREADY right with God.
     

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