Parroting the "Trump/Clinton 2 Sides of the Same Coin" Strawman

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Benjamin, May 20, 2016.

  1. Benjamin

    Benjamin
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    This has been repeated countless times on this board since the suggestion came from Cruz/Carly during their last breaths.

    I don't see it. All I see is a lot of spin and going back to Trump's past to try to make this "case".

    It doesn't seem to me that Trump and Clinton could even be said to be from the same planet on most issues.

    Going over a few issues off the top of my head I can think of major differences in positions. To list a few:

    Second amendment

    Abortion

    Obamacare/Heathcare

    Education

    Scotus nominees

    Immigration

    Climate change

    Expand the military

    Economy

    Terrorism

    On energy

    On Israel

    Same sex marriage
     
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  2. 777

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    Yep, Clinton and Trump are more different than they are similar. Thing is, you know exactly what Hillary will do, she IS a seasoned politician and has a voting record. Trump, OTOH, all you've got is what he says. But there's no way WaPo would send out twenty reporters (and none on Hillary, of course) just to dig up dirt on Trump if he was some Hillary clone.

    As for the rest of the #neverTrump crowd, let them be. The GOPe part can vote for Garry Johnson and the die-hard Cruzers can just write-in his name. I don't have to be told over and over again about how they're too pure to vote for Clinton or Trump and about how they can't distinguish between the two.
     
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  3. stevewm1963

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    How about this...they're BOTH God haters! Trump thinks he is above God and Hillary just doesn't care!
     
  4. Rolfe

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    I wonder how much of this statement is because of Ben Carson.


    My opinion only. One can tell much about a person and his character by the words he speaks and how he has conducted himself in the past. Based on these alone, I would not hire Trump to mow my lawn let alone manage my Country.
     
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  5. InTheLight

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    Here's a tweet from Donald Trump after the Sandy Hook shootings:

    Trump Tweet1.JPG

    Here's another.

    Trump Tweet2.JPG

    Here's a news article:

    Donald Trump Thinks You Should Be Able To Bring Guns Anywhere, Except His Own Hotels

    ThinkProgress spoke with a number of hotels and golf courses in the Trump empire and found that multiple locations were gun-free zones, even for guests with concealed-carry permits.

    “No, we don’t allow any firearms in the hotel,” a manager at Trump International Hotel & Tower Chicago told ThinkProgress over the phone.

    Guns are also banned at Trump National Golf Club in Los Angeles. An employee at the course told ThinkProgress that “we don’t allow firearms on the property.” Asked whether that ban applies even to those with a concealed-carry permit, he said that “with a permit we still don’t allow firearms.”

    http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2015/08/05/3688084/donald-trump-hotels-gun-free-zones/
     
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  6. Rolfe

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    Yep. And Trump also praised Bill Clinton's assault Weapons ban.
     
  7. 777

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    "ThinkProgress"? LOL

     
  8. InTheLight

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    "Breitbart" LOL.
     
  9. Rolfe

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    I wish I could remember where I heard this: "Drudgebart". Whoever came up with that one was brilliant.
     
  10. preachinjesus

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    The OP has started a thread with a catchy title but, in the content of the post, doesn't provide much. So let's get to the bones of the issue and see what's going on. Since I've said (in other threads) that Trump and Clinton are simply different sides of the same coin (a phrase I actually used previously) this thread is directed at dissenters from the corrupted two party system like me.

    When I've said Trump and Clinton are two sides of the same coin this does, in part, mean their stances on positions but is more about how they are similarly corrupt individuals. We all know the baggage the Clinton family brings but Mr Trump has an entirely new kind of baggage that is just as loaded. Both appear to have little esteem for accountability and have engaged in dealings that are beyond illegal and downright immoral.

    The most basic issue is simple: we don't entirely know where Donald Trump stands on all the issues because he consistently changes his positions. Just like he has changed his party affiliation over the past thirty years or so.

    This leads to a pretty challenging situation for Republican voters, as another poster has aptly noted, we don't know what Mr Trump would do if elected President. He's changed his positions so often it is difficult to entirely be sure.

    Alongside this first challenge is the second: Donald Trump hasn't actually articulated many policy positions and, when confronted about his vacuous statements on policy, never clarifies but attacks those asking the questions. Of the few positions he has clearly articulated, we see there are some differences from Mrs Clinton on certain things, but corresponding similarities on others. Mr Trump also suffers from having given a number of contradicting positions. However, it has been noted that both candidates need to begin clarifying their positions so Mr Trump isn't alone in ambiguity. Mrs Clinton does have something that Mr Trump doesn't, by virtue of her lengthy public service, an large voting record. That isn't, as noted by many Trump supporters, inherently a good thing to all.

    For the basis of some the next series of comments please refer to this excellent site (OnTheIssues.org) for details on Donald Trump (T) and Hillary Clinton (C).

    Second amendment
    (T) Supports no weapons bans and believes gun ownership is a right. Though previously supported an assault weapons ban.
    (C) Advocates "sensible" gun control regulations and has voted to limit gun ownership.

    Abortion
    (T) Opposes late term abortion, but has supported pro-choice positions including verbal support for Planned Parenthood but thinks it should be defunded. Says he's evolved on this position.
    (C) - Clearly supports abortion on demand without apology.

    Obamacare/Heathcare
    (T) Wants to modify but keep in place the ACA including removing the individual mandate.
    (C) States the ACA is successful and should be expanded.

    Education
    (T) No stated education policy, but has spoken out against Common Core and Department of Education while historically championing school choice and breaking up teachers unions.
    (C) Champion of public schools, supporter of unions, and Common Core is taken from Clintons' state education policy in Arkansas. Wants to allow college students to attend debt-free schools.

    Scotus nominees
    (T) Has recently released a list of his intended appointments and supports opposing President Obama's nominee to replace Scalia.
    (C) Hasn't released a list, has historically voted against (campaigned against) previous Republic appointments, indicates she will re-submit Merrick Garland.

    Immigration
    (T) Significant immigration changes including building a wall that Mexico pays for, banning Muslim immigration, refugees are a trojan horse, among other suggestions.
    (C) Supports path to citizenship and amnesty for some, extending undocumented workers' children instate tuition for college, supports assistance to refugees.

    Climate change [Environment]
    (T) Hasn't said much here, has previously said he doubts man-made climate change, and some have sought to clarify his positions based on past acts or current advisors.
    (C) Has historically voted to extend environmental protections, believes in man-made climate change and seeks to stop it, supports Paris accords, and sees EPA as vital regulatory agency to protecting environment.

    Expand the military
    (T) Wants to "make the military great again" and expand interventionist strategy on behalf of American interests, use military to destroy ISIS, supported then opposed Iraq War II, but also cut defense spending.
    (C) Apologized for pro-Iraq War vote in 2002 (kinda), would draw down military spending, has supported UN over US command decisions, continue administration plans.

    Economy
    (T) Wants to expand economy 6%, talks about growing US business, bringing back US jobs from overseas, provide 0% corporate tax, no minimum wage raise.
    (C) Limit corporate tax benefits, use tax dollars for infrastructure improvements, wants a balanced budget, $12 minimum wage, providing incentives for corporations to grow.

    Terrorism
    (T) ISIS is major threat and refugees are trojan horses, will use military to destroy economic benefits for terrorists, aggressively pursue terrorists, not much in terms of solutions.
    (C) Supports combating ISIS and protecting US by partnering with other nations, voted to extend $86 billion for wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, terrorism is a multi-national threat.

    On energy
    (T) Opposes cap and trade, green energy needs to be more profitable quicker to work, oil is lifeblood of economy, expand drilling rights for oil.
    (C) Opposes Keystone, champions green energy initiatives, cautious about nuclear power, voted against Yucca Mountain.

    On Israel
    (T) Sayas he can broker deal between Israel and Palestine, doesn't want to take sides with Israel in negotiations, has stated he supports Israel.
    (C) Has not clarified Israel position, supported both Israel and Palestine, has supported Israel in Senate votes, says she will continue to support Israel in the White House.

    Same sex marriage
    (T) Has not provided much beyond stating the SCOTUS decision is reality.
    (C) Supporter of same sex marriage and rights.

    So that's it for these issues. There are more to discuss. Hopefully this will be a profitable thread. I honestly have no clue why I've spent the time doing this beyond the hope of fruitful interaction and personal growth. I'm still standing by my statement that, at the end of the day, the two are different sides of the same coin. Between them there are issues they disagree on, and that gulf will grow, my larger issue with Mr Trump is he doesn't have a record and has been unclear on many of these issues beyond statements. Mrs Clinton, like it or not, has a record and has policy proposals in most all of these categories.

    So there we go.
     
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  11. 777

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    Who quoted Breitbart? That was straight from twitter. I NEVER go to thinkprogress because of the name (like they're pro 2A) and I never go to the other place because it has got to be the glitchiest site on the internet and the sensationalistic headlines they like to use don't help matters, either.

    But what you posted was a six-month-old story from some far-left outfit that they wrote just so they could call Trump a "hypocrite". It's been long-debunked and never had the impact that they wanted.

    Yet, Trump still gets an endorsement by the NRA, guess they can't see through him.

    Alright, I thought either you wanted self-validation or you were trying to persuade, better yet, dissuade people here for voting for Trump, sounds like it's the former and you're leaning towards not voting for either of these two. I'm leaning the other way but have decided not to decide.

    You still have months to think about it and listen to see how it all unfolds. Agree that it's bad that Trump has no voting record - even a negative one like I consider Hillary's to be is in a way better than none at all.
     
  12. preachinjesus

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    Hello friend, we haven't met. I'd encourage you to check into some of my other posts as well as others here. I'm not voting, as has been my pattern for the last several elections, for either of the two major party candidates for President. My point above is that Trump's lack of record is something to be aware of, but that many folks who support him count this as a qualifier. I've stated elsewhere that I don't believe Mr Trump will win the Presidency and will be soundly defeated by Mrs Clinton.

    I've presented the issues as they were asked by the OP. Hopefully we'll be able to see continued interaction on these points. :)
     
  13. Benjamin

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    Most people using this phrase are doing so in same breath with calling Trump a liberal with a focus on his positions, so your claim of meaning 2 side of same coin to relate to being "corrupt individuals" gets into morality issues and a lot of subjectivity on a different note.


    If this "basic issue" is true that one cannot know Trumps position then how can one say they are 2 sides of the same coin (relating to position) anymore than not?


    This sounds like another parroted argument to me, but that aside, again, the argument of the topic is on "2 sides of the same coin" - so if as you you say it "is difficult to entirely be sure" of his position then there is no logical basis for making the original argument and it fails on face value.

    Yet, another parroted sounding argument that without chasing that/those separate issue(s), which I would take exception to, it can still be said such an argument, again, logically disqualifies the original argument. - if he hasn't articulated policy there is no basis to make the first argument.

    I find your source's comparisons very vague and leaving out a great deal of differences and I suspect that was their intent. Although, I thought some of the comparisons were sufficient to show opposition rather than the other side of the same coin I don't have time right not to search out quotes but hope to bring some of these differences to light for anyone who is interested in sticking to the original argument that Trump's positions are of the same coin as Hillary's.

    And thank you for addressing the topic.
     
    #13 Benjamin, May 23, 2016
    Last edited: May 23, 2016
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  14. Benjamin

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    BTW, you've made this reference to me about Ben Carson several times now. So let me just say that although I have a lot of respect for Carson visions for our country I assure you I have a mind of my own. ;)
     
  15. preachinjesus

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    So its okay for Mr Trump to parade around as a Christian even though he's a serial adulterer, corrupt businessman, someone who misrepresents the truth often, and has an immoral lifestyle? Do you believe that Christians are held to moral absolutes?

    Between the two candidates for the major parties, both are highly suspect in their personal character and have engaged in personal corruption of a level uncommon for the vast majority of Americans. They are, indeed, two sides of the same coin.

    When we look at their policy proposals, as I've noted above, there are some differences. Some of the largest contrasts have to do with major public policy such as education, environment, military, and foreign policy. If you're going to advocate for Mr Trump being very different from Mrs Clinton, that's the place to start. But defending his character against hers...that's not an ideal place.

    The challenge with Mr Trump is that he lacks a base of proposal or record of positions and, when pressed over the past number of months, has regularly offer both contradictory claims on issues and, at other times, ambiguity. He should be putting out massive policy proposals on all these issues to clarify. But he isn't.

    For many his lack of public policy experience is a bonus. He doesn't come in with the long history in politics and that makes him more able to change things.

    I generally don't parrot arguments, but do my own work and come up with observations. It is difficult to be sure where Mr Trump will land on things and that is a mark against him.

    This site appears very credible. It uses multiple hyperlinks and direct quotes for both candidates. Most sites don't do this. Perhaps there are better sites out there...I don't have that much of a dog in the hunt in defending either of these individuals.

    I'll look forward to your reply with quotes and direct links as I have provided above.

    You're welcome and thank you for your interaction.
     
  16. Benjamin

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    I take a while to get try to get my thoughts wrote down and don't have all that much time to do so but I'll start with why my view of the abortion position between the two is not them being being 2 sides of the same coin in any way:

    First, I believe Trump’s past position on abortion is just that “past”. Regardless of those who try to spin a recent comment, which I believe was merely his way of not mounting or revealing for the opposition reason to take issue against what they would consider an all-out attack to disassemble the “Planned Parenthood” organization. Yet, Trump has clarified that his statement that gets spun was in relation to other than abortion and was regarding there being some purpose ("good") for that operation. I believe he was originally (merely) attempting to lessen the backlash sure to happen from coming right out and saying there was nothing of value to “Planned Parenthood”.

    I believe “today”, Trump is being careful not to state his plan and desire to change abortion laws. He believes abortion is murder. He just doesn’t come straight out and say so:




    Supporting the constitution he has said believes the states should be able to make their own laws regarding the matter. But, yet the federal government, through the SCOTUS, has taken this matter out of the hands of the states. - and he knows this...


    I believe his heart is that he would desire to have the SCOTUS in a position to reverse Roe vs Wade BUT strategically he is NOT going to broadcast that and have every liberal pro-abortion rights advocate up in arms attacking him on this issue while he tries to secure the position of the POTUS. I believe that is the (‘political’) game he is playing (a type of code taking) and I gladly accept his strategy against his adversaries if geared toward making these changes in the abortion laws.


    Trump explains how he came to have a change of heart on his position on abortion.


    IOWs he came to realize it was more than a disposable fetus, like the liberals would like "us" (whosoever) to believe and accept, but rather he believes the unborn a wonderful gift of life with great potential. I know this situation personally, as when I was 31 I willingly went along with the idea that the fetus wasn’t a baby yet and took the “easy way” out, but at the late age of 35 picked up a Bible for the first time and started reading which within a few years lead to me to a change of heart and deeply regretting my decisions that I would, to this day, gladly give my own life to have that decision over again. I’ve prayed over this countless times and feel despair whenever I think of it while considering my actions, or maybe better said “my inaction to stop it” by far the worst mistake (sin) in my life. My point being that one's views may change and I don’t believe Trump’s change of heart is a lie or will it ever go back to what they were.


    OTOH, the heart of Hillary, is unquestionably without a doubt!!, is ALL FOR abortion while she uses the code words of saying she supports “women’s health issues” regarding Planned Parenthood to smokescreen her radical liberal support of the “right to abort a child”!!


    Does anyone truthfully doubt Hillary’s position being pro-abortion???


    These issues (DIFFERENCES) on abortion, alone, are enough for me to give my support to Trump. I cannot think of any better opportunity to make some changes in the abortion laws. If Hillary becomes the next president and decider of the SCOTUS nominees any hope for positive change will be lost, probably forever. Throwing away one’s vote on a third party may be considered the upright moral thing to do by some, but they do so (take this demand of a higher overall standard for their vote) in disregard of any hope of making a HUGE moral law change for which I believe the time to do it is NOW.


    Talk about “throwing the baby out with the bath water”!! How is it more moral if when throwing out something good is eliminated (a fighting stance against abortion) when trying to get rid of something bad (“Trump – the evil divorced adulterer”)??? – the very definition of the poor reasoning of “throwing out the baby with the bath water”.


    No way do I see Trump and Hillary 2 sides of the same coin on this issue. Do they both use political code talk? Yes. But the coin in the picture for me is not the strategy of getting there, which I see very little discourse than to play the game, but what the coin is purposed to buy are black and white on this issue. Or not the same coin at all…
     
  17. poncho

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    There sure is a lot of virtue signaling going on in this thread.
     

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