Partial Rapture

What about the "If's" of the scripture? Not to mention the word "except". Are we to ignore them?

Further, the Thessalonians were concerned that they had missed The Rapture due to false (post-trib) teachings. That was the whole purpose of Paul's second letter, to ensure them that they had not, it being yet future. (They were the first "recorded" partial rapturists.)

He confirmed for them that it had not yet occurred, but he never made any indication (and that's where it should have been made, were it to be made at all in the whole of scripture) that no believer would, or even "could" miss the Rapture. No where in scripture are we assured it is impossible to do so, and I have sighted many of the passages containing the warnings to the contrary.

You have disagreed with my explanations, and are adamant in your statement of, "There is no Partial Rapture", yes. But you have not made any direct comments on the passages themselves concerning correction. The wording in each is quite precise.

 

This is a most interesting discussion. White is using some of the same scriptures to promote a partial rapture, that those who don't believe in eternal security say conflict with the eternal security doctrine.

I assume the White believes in the eternal security doctrine. It appears that White is struggling with these non-eternal security doctrine scriptures and has come up with a partial rapture theory to explain away these scriptures.

No debate intended, just an observation.

 

Hey gang I “was” A Pre trib believer for 13 years. I believed because of Tim LaHayes, Jack Van Impe and John Hagee. It is so easy to believe what others say.

But what does the Lord say really? Remember when Jesus asked his Disciples. Who do people say that I am? They thought He was some kind of prophet. But Jesus says but who do you say that I Am? Peter says the Son of the living God. Jesus said you are right. And this was not revealed by you but by my Father who is above. In that same manner we rely on the Word of God to help us but even more God himself.

I took a thorough reading through Matthew 24. I read in Thessalonians then in Revelations. . I now am a post trib believer. Oh sure, it don’t make sense logically on the surface of it all. Pre Trib looks logical but less of Scripture. Post trib is more faith and more Scriptural. There is a particular part in the Bible that seals in the post trib it is what pre trib believers and jumping past or avoiding. It is clear as day as the Lord spoke these things.

Tim LaHayes, Hal Lindsay, Jack Van Impe, John Hagee, David Jeremiah and others are going to be in for a surprise. Sorry you guys there is no pre trib. You invented it. The Bible tells us other wise. Comparing the Eschatology of Matthew Thess. and Revelations post trib has a great purpose why it fits. One will then understand truly what the wrath of God is, the signs to be looking for the Son of man. The Signs? Yes but not the Day or Hour. Anyone who thinks Jesus is about to take people now are being held off by Satan to buy more time. Be looking for the New World Order. The World Order is what is evolving. Talk about a One World Government has been going on for years. But the General Public is not told this in News Papers. The World order is real. We’re getting sucked in this. How many believe that Obama is patriotic American?

For He who allowed the mosque to be built near Ground Zero not wanting to offend Islam, the man who helped launch Gay pride month, the man who just after days in office signed for legal Abortion, the man who stopped Franklin Graham to pray in the Pentagon. Obama is not so concerned about America as He is as a Global Leader. He is more willing to fit in with them than America. Obama is truly Anti Christian and is pushing America more that way. For the Bible says “They will have a form of Godliness but they will deny God. It is what Obama has been doing. He is not however the coming Antichrist. But people like Him and other World leaders are helping to pave the way to the coming Antichrist of the most likely not so far off Future. Puzzled about TSA? Puzzled about Government Health Care? We’re being Globalize and closely watched. The World order is shaping up the approach of the last days.
Am I sure that the Antichrist will happen before the Rapture. Absolutely the answer is in Thess. Antichrist will be here first. By man’s logic one may conclude the Church will be taken for 7 years but Biblically that is not so. The Lord knows what He is doing. Anyone wants to know why the Rapture is post trib you can write to me. Listening to what others say and the difference from reading the Bible are 2 different things. Don’t take my Word for it. Believe God it is Written.

 

No debate sought. "Was" struggling, years ago in my youth.

Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, (saved) "to" (for the purpose of) present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 "If" ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

I gave up ignoring the jot and tittle of the scripture, for accepting the whole of the reading of God's Word long ago.

 

One; we didn't invent it. It was taught in the second century by the Shepherd of Hermis.
Two; yeah, what does the Lord say.

Revelation 2:22
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, "except" they repent of their "deeds".

This one passage says that those that repent from the sin mentioned will not be cast into great tribulation. Someone is not going into great tribulation.

 

That is commentary argument. There is no scripture in there.

 

The passage,,,

Revelation 2:22
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

How do the unsaved, who are not "espoused to Christ" commit adultery against him? A person can only commit adultery against their spouse.

2 Corinthians 11:2-3
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I "may present" you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

 

I am not bothered to be laughed at for this. Cause I know what it is like to defend the pre trib and to not believe the post trib as I once did not.

As a matter of fact this is the one topic that makes others most upset. No one can be affected for what I believe and the same token I’m not affected by what you believe. But we will be all affected by what God has said and will do. I can make a case of this. But I don’t need to. For I would give the same advice as I myself had done. Read what is in the Bible it won’t change tomorrow. The same words are there day by day. The Bible says if anyone seeks wisdom let Him ask of God and God will give liberally without shame. Also it says let every man be a liar but God to be true so when you proclaim the Lord you will prove to be right.

I don’t try to prove I am right. To prove that I am right does not mean anything to prove God is right means everything. I yield the truth to God. Post Trib is defying our logic on the surface of things. I understand this. But once the evidence of Post Trib is revealed I can’t deny what Scriptures say. Laugh at me make fun of me. That’s already happening to Christians now being laughed at and calling the Bible a bunch of brainwash nonsense. Being Criticized and being put down is part of being a Christian. But we know that pre and Post Trib is not the epicenter of the Gospel that one needs to believe to be saved. We still strive for the Gospel of Jesus Christ who died on the cross for mankind’s sins.

We may not agree on the timing of the Rapture or the Return of Christ but we do need to believe Jesus is sent by the Father to be our one mediator between us and the Father that by no other name can anyone be saved.
I will never go back to pre trib to the things I know now in the Bible. When the evidence is there I can’t argue against God. He is always right every time. Even when we don’t understand his reason the Lord is always right. They spit on him. They laughed at him they tortured him. But Jesus still even through all this lived again to be victorious. I’m very confident in Post Trib/ Pre Trib is the Goliath belief of this day. And Post Trib is the David of this day. Who will win David or Goliath? Read the Bible and see who wins.

 

(And this is all difficult during the day hours, I'm at work. This is all done on breaks. Forgive the lapse in all non-timely responses.)

Revelation 2:22
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

2 Corinthians 11:2-3
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Absolutely correct, "except" it is not a metaphor. Because of the record of 2 Cor. 11:1-3, we find (because Israel has been written a bill [or writing] of divorce),,,

Jeremiah 3:6-8
6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot. 7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Jehovah (Jesus) has taken another as his bride (The Church) under the New Covenant. (This is not replacement theology, Israel is still Israel, and God's first choosen "people") But she is no longer his "espoused bride".

That's true, in a sense. Every member of the "true" Church of God is. But not all members of the local church are, many are not saved.

The reason disobedience by believers to God is portrayed as the sin of adultery, is to establish the fact that the lost are excluded from the company all together. The lost are not saved (of course), but as a result, they are also not engaged to Christ (also, of course).

Therefore, the lost can not commit adultery against Jesus for the simple fact that adultery can only be committed against one's spouse. When the world engages in the activities mentioned in Revelation 2:22 as was Jezebel, and teaches "his servants" (believers) so, it is called fornication because the world (as is Jezebel) is lost. They can not commit the sin of adultery, having never accepted Jesus as Christ our Lord, Savior, and BrideGroom.

The fact that Revelation 2:22 records the sin as adultery, is the proof positive that Jesus is speaking to the believers of the Church of Thyatira (not the lost) but who have turned away from the truth in Christ, and are accepting the false teachings of "Jezebel" who has rejected the truth and failed to repent.

Only those who are true believers are members of "The Church". Those who count themselves members but are not saved are simply that, lost, and are in a continual state of fornication before God.

Absolutely, no unbeliever (the unrighteous) will ever inherit the kingdom of God. And they "live" (and relish) in all the descriptions listed. "They" are what they practice.

A believer can never become the embodiment of what is described, because we have an advocate, Jesus Christ. But a believer can engage in the behavior and sever his/her fellowship, although they retain their "relationship" as a child of God, albeit they make themselves a disobedient child, and therefore an adulteress to Christ just as Thyatira is exampled.

The passages establishes the relationship between Christ and his faithful Bride, who is encased inside the adulteress Church of God. The Bride awaits her redemption from this wicked world, whereas the adulteress engages of the lusts of the world which separates her from fellowship with her BrideGroom.

I, of course, respectfully and lovingly disagree. Many (most pre-tribbers) are in agreement with you. I am in the severe minority. (It’s been said by some that the “movement” is growing, but I have seen no evidence of that. I know personally only three others like myself, and I didn’t convert them. They stumbled over me because of their belief.)

I have also gained knowledge through the scripture by way of the teachings themselves that little will change between now and the Rapture. Sadly, most of the church will be in denial at that time as well. The scripture records no "mass exodus" of believers from the physical, only that it will occur.

 

It's not the elite, its the obedient. And it has nothing to do with works, or how "good" we are, but the fellowship we have or do not have with our BrideGroom. The Lord calls all his "espoused" to obedience and into fellowship. There should be no one left behind, but there will be. That being said,,,

I didn't start this thread, I just found it. So, unless anyone has any more questions, comments or criticisms, I believe that would just about wrap up my participation. My closing thoughts,,,

Matthew 6:9-15
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Most Christians overlook the following two verses. (Probably for the obvious reasons.)

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Can't be talking about salvation, the subject is prayer to The Father. Only a child of God can voice that. I believe the scripture teaches that's a done deal, and a child of God can not be "unborn". Forgiveness of trespasses will become an issue in “the day”. (And I forgive you for the "satanic" comment. I'll not have The Father holding that against me, against that day.)

Grace, Mercy, and Peace be multiplied to you and yours, and to all. May you all keep yourselves safe in God's Will.

 

I really do wish you and your fellow believers were right. When I first discovered what I consider now the truth, I myself went through denial. I don't like the idea. I don't know why the Lord structured his plan as he did, but I won't question him. I don't enjoy "arguing" with my brethren and sistren in Christ. But I made a promise to the Lord, if I was shown the truth, I would preach it.

Then, oops! "I can't preach that in a Baptist Church, they'll run me off."

Answer, "Well, what's it gonna be? Put up or shut up."

The Price you mention.

The purpose for which it was paid, and the conditions necessary for inclusion.

Relax, it's just the scripture.

Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, "to" present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 "If" ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, "and" be not "moved away" from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

All interpretations of other passages must agree. There's no ignoring the "IF's" of the scripture without being incorrect. So, if "IF" doesn't mean what it appears to mean on the surface, "IF" what, concerning the hope of the gospel? It is in the verse.

(By the way. I have a very close friend I grew up with, that won't even look at or discuss "certain" passages of scripture with me anymore. Imagine that! A Christian that won't look at certain scriptures "except" under certain conditions. [And there's another word for your study.] I don't even have words for that.)

 

So how is it, under the partial rapture view, that "Christians" who have been unfaithful and are not worthy to go in the initial rapture become worthy to enter heaven?