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'PASSION OF THE CHRIST' will top the box office

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by indigonorthpa, Feb 12, 2004.

  1. SpiritWalker

    SpiritWalker New Member

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    Today I was thinking about Mel Gibson's background, upset with his quoted statements about only Roman Catholics being saved, and other signs of his differences with evangelicals. But then I remembered my own faults and misconceptions, bias and general lack of understanding in many areas of theology and doctrine.

    God has always used imperfect people to bring His case to both Israel and gentiles like me. I too have been used of Him from time to time in a small way, but I would not measure up either to such a great responsibility if examined under a microscope. Even though I try to follow Him so close I step on His heels, I have little understanding of some things and a lack of maturity in others, even though I have known Him for amost 50 years.

    By His own account, Mel Gibson is a fairly new Christian, as we would understand it, and is subject to all the mistakes new Christians make. Obviously he has a lot to learn. So I choose to not look at the messenger, but at the message. Mel Gibson is not worthy to be entrusted with such a critically important story for this generation, but then again, neither am I.

    By all the accounts I have read, and I have seen many, the Holy Spirit speaks to the hearts of all those who see the film, compellingly pointing out that Jesus is indeed God, that we all put Him to death, no matter who we are, and that those of us who choose to do so, can share in His ressurection. I understand that each viewer's eyes turn inward to see their own vile empty heart in light of who He is. Only God Himself could do that to unregenerate human hearts, not a movie director.

    Perhaps in an age of an ineffective church with its compromised gospel, God has taken things into His own hands, using one of the world's most gifted artists to paint a beautiful portrait of His beloved Son for all to see. In any case, His Word will NOT return unto Him void. We might just see a time of nearly unprecedented hunger for personal knowledge of the Savior of the world. I don't know, but I pray it may prove to be so.
     
  2. Forever settled in heaven

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    apologies to those who love to the suspense ... but for starters:

    1. Satan lurks in the background during Christ's Gethsemane prayer n Roman scourging in the form of an androgynous cloaked figure that changes fr mildly male to madonna hugging a big-headed infant.

    2. Pilate's wife presents Mel's Coredemptrix Mary w cloths to mop up Jesus' blood on Gabbatha.

    3. VERONICA does her deed, u know? ;)

    4. the freshly crucified Jesus gets flipped face up then face down then up again before being raised upright. that's the kind of thing Mel (or his catholic genius) protracts Jesus' suffering beyond the gospel accounts.

    5. Judas gets hounded out of town by a group of sneering kids, who strangely disappear just moments before he's driven to suicide by hanging--seems to excuse his betrayal on grounds of schizophrenia/paranoia.

    6. one of the malefactors gets his eye pecked out by a blackbird.

    7. the crucifixion ends w a pieta tableau worthy of Michaelangelo--so abruptly that Joseph of Arimathea never really gets a chance to obtain Pilate's permission for that to happen.

    one good thing that wasn't in the gospel account was Jesus stomping the snake dead in the Gethsemane--i thot that was neat in terms of weaving in the protevangelion. but overall, it was a piece of propaganda--no less of tiptop Hollywood storytelling n effect--for Traditional Catholicism.
     
  3. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    Perhaps extra biblical, but nothing anti-biblical then. [​IMG]
     
  4. Forever settled in heaven

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    not unless Rev. 22:18-19 matters.

    now, i'm not against the use of a little artistic n editorial licence, so long as it isn't claimed (as allegedly by Pope JP II), "It is as it was," or otherwise faithful n accurate to Scriptures as Neo Evangelical posterboy Billy Graham, purpose-driven industrialist Rick Warren, n ECT backer J.I. Packer r said to have claimed.

    to begin w, i think the idea of Mary as co-Redemptrix is not just extrabiblical but anti-biblical, Christ being our only Mediator (Jude 25).

    also, the idea of extrabiblical authority flies in the face of sola scriptura, as taught in 2Tim 3:15-17.

    one can only check Mel's source for such extrabiblical elements: http://www.emmerich1.com/DOLOROUS_PASSION_OF_OUR_LORD_JESUS_CHRIST.htm
     
  5. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    "Rev. 22:18-19
    For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: [19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

    Since "this book" speaks to that of the book of Revelation, you'll have to explain that comment to me.

    "to begin w, i think the idea of Mary as co-Redemptrix is not just extrabiblical but anti-biblical, Christ being our only Mediator"

    Christ naturally, is our only Mediator between God and man, as context demands and as Catholic teaching confirms. If you mean to say that co-redemptix implies Mary saved us with Jesus, that is a misunderstanding. As Paul tells us he offers up his suffering to be united with Christ, so to does Mary's suffering at the foot of the cross, this being the intent of the doctrine. Don't feel bad though, it is the source of as much confusion (by protestants AND Catholics) as the clipped and butchered phrase "No salvation outside the Church". As I was telling someone earlier, you can make James say "salvation is not by faith" if you have a knife handy.
     
  6. Caretaker

    Caretaker <img src= /drew.gif>

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    Mary is declared to be Mediatrix in the Catholic Cathechism, but not co-Redemtrix. But a Bible believer has ONE mediator who is Christ our Lord.


    Catholic Cathechism:

    969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

    47. The RC teaches: Mary is the co-mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions. (Catechisms 968-970, 2677).

    The Bible teaches: Christ Jesus is the one mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions. I Timothy 2:5, John 14:13&14, I Peter 5:7.

    Main Entry: me•di•a•trix
    Pronunciation: -'A-triks
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin, feminine of mediator
    Date: 15th century
    : a woman who is a mediator


    http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/pray0685.htm


    Prayer to Our Lady, Health of the Sick
    Virgin, most holy, Mother of the Word Incarnate, Treasurer of graces, and Refuge of sinners, I fly top your motherly affection with lively faith, and I beg of you the grace ever to do the will of God.

    Into your most holy hands I commit the keeping of my heart, asking you for health of soul and body, in the certain hope that you, my most loving Mother, will hear my prayer.

    Into the bosom of your tender mercy, this day, every day of my life, and at the hour of my death, I commend my soul and body.

    To you I entrust all my hopes and consolations, all my trials and miseries, my life and the end of my life, that all my actions may be ordered and disposed according to your will and that of your Divine Son. Amen.


    http://www.justforcatholics.org/a64.htm

    Every Christian should consider Mary with respect. She is forever to be called blessed. Yet, I think it is a sign of disrespect when people expect from her things that she cannot give. Why would people pray to her, when the Bible clearly teaches us that we should pray to God and that God alone knows our hearts (1 Kings 8:39)? Why would people ask grace from Mary, when the Bible teaches us that all grace comes from God (1 Peter 5:10)? Why should people call her "our life" and "our hope", when the Bible teaches us that the Lord is our life and hope (Colossians 3:4; 1 Timothy 1:1)? Why would people make her a mediator, when the Bible says that there is one mediator, Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5)? And why should people trust even the hour of their death wholly to her care? Isn't the Good Shepherd of the sheep willing to keep His own and bring them safely to glory (John 10:27,28)?

    Sadly, in practice many Catholics worship Mary because they pray to her, trust in her and attribute to her titles and honors, which belong to God alone. May God grant them repentance. Rather than looking unto a creature, we should follow Mary in her godly example and apply to the Lord for salvation and all spiritual blessings.


    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Gibson's movie has been filtered through the rancid rubbish of RCC idolitry and corruption. RCC mystics have been sourced for important segiments. A believer should not support nor justify a work of RCC dogma.


    A servant of Christ,
    Drew
     
  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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  8. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    Aye, our wonderful English language in action once again. :rolleyes:

    I'm not sure how comfortable I am going too far into this since our Catholic brothers and sisters can't respond up here. Remember though that Catholic laymen are as prone to error as any of us are, so their word cannot be taken as "gospel" truth, especially since it is easy as a protestant, speaking the "protestant" language to completely misunderstand or miss the point of a Catholic text.

    Basically, Mary bore the Savior and gave Christ his human nature. While she remains no mediator of the new Covenant- what your verse speaks of, Catholics believe Mary is the mediator of "all graces", not the mediator between God and man. The idea is that the grace of God passes through Mary to us. Remember that through her bearing of the Savior she is uniquely tied to the Holy Spirit. This is not anti-biblical, only extra-biblical.
     
  9. SpiritWalker

    SpiritWalker New Member

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    I believe the Catholic Church is every bit as horrible as the average Northern Ireland Anglican Bishop/politician (I would not want to mention any names [​IMG] ), but I do not "carte blanche" share that same condemnation in regards to all those who are yet influenced by it.

    After all does not God say "Come out of her my people, lest you take part in her sins," in a passage descriptive of that organization. So that means there are many of His stuck in there until the command is understood and obeyed. And coming out of her they have, by the millions!

    According to the evangelical protestants that have seen the preview in the accounts that I have read, there is nothing overtley Catholic vs. protestant in its presentation. I understand Mary is treated with great respect, which is perhaps not a bad idea in the first place. Any story where a son is being killed by a mob would show the heartbroken mother/wife/children as a part of the backdrop. If Mel went beyond that allowable for good truthful story telling, I have not heard so from those of like mind to us Baptists say so, unless I misunderstood someone (always a possibility, even a probability).

    In any event, in less than 2 weeks from now, after seeing it, we can all make our own judgment calls on these things can't we? I know one thing! It is unlikely to flood the Catholic Church with new converts. The Holy Spirit will not direct those under conviction in that direction. If it produces the same type of hunger for a personal knowledge of Jesus Christ to the masses as it appears to have done to the previewers, we may have something special on our hands, to say the least. I pray it may be so.

    SpiritWalker
     
  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    IMO many Catholics are saved but that in spite of the RCC.

    It is the aristocracy and the hiearchy of the Church of Rome which disseminates their error to the sheep.

    How can any Baptist support in any manner the doctrinal abuse done to Mary the mother of our Lord?

    Did anyone visit the websites?
    Co-Redemptrix?

    Titus 2
    13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

    Acts 4
    12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    Mediatrix of All Graces?
    1 Timothy 2
    5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    Advocate?
    1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    To all the dear Catholic viewers:
    IMO you have been deceived by your Church.

    Here is a passage from the Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible:

    John 14:6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

    Here is the ONLY passage in the Bible where Mary gives us a commandment:

    John 2:5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

    Here is what He saith unto you from the Catholic Bible:

    Matthew 11
    27 All things are delivered to me by my Father. And no one knoweth the Son but the Father: neither doth any one know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom it shall please the Son to reveal him.
    28 Come to me all you that labor and are burdened, and I will refresh you.
    29 Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: And you shall find rest to your souls.
    30 For my yoke is sweet and my burden light.


    John 6 (Catholic Bible)
    37 All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me: and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
    38 Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him that sent me.
    39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day.
    40 And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son and believeth in him may have life everlasting. And I will raise him up in the last day.

    Duoay-Rheims
    1 John 5:13 These things I write to you that you may know that you have eternal life : you who believe in the name of the Son of God.
     
  11. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    I really think this discussion belongs in the other religion section. I'd be happy to discuss this and help debunk common misconceptions of the faith down there. In the least, Catholics who know the faith better than I, can respond.

    This is also off topic for the post.
     
  12. Servent

    Servent Member

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    I dont get it, why not take something that was made by the world and use it for good. Does not satan do this every day, he will take something meant to do good and prevert it. weather this movie was made by an unsaved person or not GOD can and will use it for good. What we need to do is get up off our hind ends and go to work. I for one am going to do the best I can. If you have a problem using it for a witnessing tool why go see it.
     
  13. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Brother Adam says:
    I don't know that it's off topic, the person who started this thread said (actually SHOUTED) the following:

    Myself (a former "cradle" Catholic) and others are simply giving reasons why Baptists should NOT simply throw down a blanket support of the film especially as an evangelistic tool which was born of the creative genius of a staunch Roman Catholic like Mel Gibson (who is BTW one of my favorite actors but not one of my favorite theologians).

    In all fairness, I will go to see the film and perhaps have somewhat good to say (I hope) concerning the quality of the film as a film but not as an evangelistic tool.

    I don't need to see the film to know that it will NOT get a blanket endorsement from me in terms of
    Unless "talking it up" is considered an endorsement.

    But then again neither would I endorse the movie "King of Kings" or even "Ben Hur".

    Movies have too much fiction, the Gospel doesn't need any help from anyone including and especially the promotion of the doctrines of Rome.

    But, Yes, it doesn't take the proverbial rocket scientist to predict that Mel's movie will be a box office bust.

    There is my on topic opinion

    HankD
     
  14. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Like it or not the movie will have people asking questions about it's claims and as Christians we better be ready!

    The church where I attend has purchased a LARGE number of tickets and will be using the movie to evangelize those that have not received the good news of the gospel.

    In our population dense area we frequestly gain (and loose) church members through fads like this. People move from one bible-believing church to another. We are encouraging our church members to use the tickets and distribute them amoung their unchurched friends and aquaintances, specifically to those that express interest.

    Services topics have been chosen that will answer questions that may come up following the movie. Small group ministries have been prepared and we have produced an slide-advertisement that will run before and after the movie along with the other ads.

    Because of the expectation that there will be a larger than usual number of unbelievers in the church services in the weeks following the movie, we have moved the monthy Lord's supper to the evening service temporarily. [​IMG]

    We have had other churches express interest in the way we will be using this event to evangelize. Some pastors have said they would have liked to do something similar but were afraid that their congregation would not go along with the untraditional methods.

    Check out our internet site; it just went up today!

    http://www.passionchrist.com/

    Rob
     
  15. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    I believe that actually discussing the doctrine of the Catholic Church (of which Mel Gibson is almost definitely in schism as he denies the current papal authority and the authority of Vatican II), we really should let our Catholic brethren in on the discussion as it is very easy for protestants, being in a whole different mindset, often to go as far as saying someone can't be faithful to the teachings of the CC and a Christian. It just shows a misunderstanding of their faith- something they should be able to defend.
     
  16. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    I really can't wait to see the movie.

     
  17. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    First of all I don't consider myself a Protestant.
    Many Baptist do, I don't.

    Second, I've been there and debated the issues. Periodically I go to the free-for-all forums and debate. Usually I am verbally beaten and left for dead for my "unloving" ways even by other Baptists.

    I realize that some Catholics are saved in spite of the Catholic Church.

    Personally I don't want see the RCC double-think/double-speak on a Baptist only Forum. If and when I do, I'll go to them as I have in the past and take my licks.

    But when you post on a Baptist only debate forum something that suggests that we should support a Catholic endeavor (though a work of a private citizen) which is religious in nature because of the content, expect some resistance, debate and a "discussion" relevant to the content thereof.

    Like I said, FWIW to anyone, Lord willing, I am going to see the movie.


    HankD
     
  18. donnA

    donnA Active Member

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    Not only do I plan on seeing it, but I talked to our local theater manager tonight and he said they are selling more advance tickets to this movie then to any other since he's been there. I'll be picking up my tickets on Wednesday when I got to town.
     
  19. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    Its not "double-speak" at all. Its just a totally different mindset. Did you have trouble reading Shakespeare in High School? Imagine studing something from 1000 years prior to that. There will be different word usage, vocabulary, and so forth. Like I said, its easy to get mixed up.

    This movie will probably be forgotten by non-Catholics in 30 years and be part of the Catholic art collection. I'm guessing interest will die out within three months after opening day.

    Donna, I'm glad you'll be seeing the movie.
     
  20. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    Its not "double-speak" at all. Its just a totally different mindset. Did you have trouble reading Shakespeare in High School? Imagine studing something from 1000 years prior to that. There will be different word usage, vocabulary, and so forth. Like I said, its easy to get mixed up.

    This movie will probably be forgotten by non-Catholics in 30 years and be part of the Catholic art collection. I'm guessing interest will die out within three months after opening day.

    Donna, I'm glad you'll be seeing the movie.
     
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