Passion Pulpit Swap

Get a rope!...no hope in da Pope!

 

Blackbird "How would you feel if your pastor of your Baptist church invited a Catholic priest to fill his pulpit and do a "Passion message" based on Catholic theme?? "

hahahahahahah Rofl. Too funny. Oops...sorry...will try to answer without opinion and feelings and warm and fuzzy feelings.

Would that be in a movie theater or in an actual pulpit or would that make a difference?

 

I'd generally not be too thrilled with that. I've heard more catholic sermons (usually called homilies) than you could count - most are unfortunately quite anemic and doctrine poor - not to mention downright liberal at times. Many contemporary catholics carry the ecumenism thing way too far.

Now if we could have someone like Fr. Joseph Fitzmyer or the late Fr. Raymond Brown I'd be happy! These guys are perhaps the 2 best biblical theologians of the 20th century!

 

Oh about that Catholic theology,...where there is no salvation outside the Catholic church..and Mary is co-redeemer and sits at the right hand of Christ...ruling..... ...and Mary ascended to heaven....and the work of the cross was not finished by Christ....

Let me think now....what is the Scripture that supports that....hmmmm?????


Still looking....

 

Not all Catholic's share those views, SharpSword.


I wouldn't be too keen on it, either. But if it was MY pastor's idea, then I'd trust his judgement and see how things work out. I guess it would depend on the particular views of the Catholic in question.

 

Dr. Bob,
Reminds me of when I was in college. My then-girlfriend (now wife) came down for a visit and we went to church. We were sitting there when the woman who was going to sing a special got up to sing. She started talking, and kept going and going and my girlfriend leaned over and asked me if she was the preacher. I said no and in a minute she quit talking and started singing. After the service I asked my girlfriend what she'd done if the woman was the preacher, her response was something like "I guess I'd sit in the car for an hour"

 

The actual view of the catholic church regarding salvation outside the "church" is that Christianity and more specifically the catholic church have the correct answers - they would not go as far as telling another that he/she is going to hell without catholicism. They would stop at the point of saying that he/she is in danger of it - but that the decision is God's.

Regarding the coredemptrix - this is controversial in catholicism but many do not agree.

Regarding the ascension of Mary - yes this is catholic doctrine (official) and no it is NOT scriptural.

 

I'm with Dr. Bob. Wouldn't even think twice about it.

Bro Tony

 

But the catholic church teaches these as truth. Members of the catholic church are not allowed to come up with their own interpretation of a church doctrine. If they do so, they are in violation of the teachings of the church they profess to beleive.

From their own Catechism we find:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

~Lorelei

 

The church has an official stance on this issue and therefore it is not open to "controversy." The Vatican's catechism says this in regard to Mary's role in salvation.

To find out more about what they teach read their catechism above or visit this link to see some comparisons between what they teach about Mary and what the Bible says.

http://www.guidedbytruth.com/mary.shtml

~Lorelei

 

Well...I just voted, and eight out of eight said no way. Why is everyone so googley eyed over the movie then? Once again, Lorelei is right on time with the info......Hey to ya Granny.

 

I would say it is time to get the pastor search committee together.

Of Course our pastor would never do it.

 

Blackbird "that Blackbird is just as "cool and hip""

Does that mean you would wear a kilt on occasion too?

Well said, Lorelei! Facts...and Scriptural proof. Gotta love it.

Not only would you see our dust....we have left a so-called 'fundamentalist' church for bringing in heresy. This would fully qualify.

 

With the assumption that I or another pastor would be speaking at a Catholic church on the Passion from a Baptist perspective, I voted yes. It appears that I am the only one to do so, but I don't have a problem with it at all. My assumption is that the two of us would have dialogue and would respect the other's faith. We agree on the majority of issues, so I haven't a problem in echoing to another congregation the Truth that Christ died and rose again for the sins of humanity.

 

So Scott, how's that Queen of Mary and her ruling stuff and the pope crowning many statues of her, fit with your statements?

Are you planning to ignore that or is that some of what you are in agreement on?

And the Stations of the Cross, would that be part of the message you would give at a Catholic church?

Are you in agreement with this very basic catholic doctrine?

"...The Council itself clarifies this: The divine Redemptor´s mother was "above all others and in a singular way the generous associate. ... She ... was united with him by compassion as he died on the Cross. In this singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Savior in giving back supernatural life to souls. Wherefore she is our mother in the order of grace" (No. 61). "Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation." For this reason "the Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix and Mediatrix" (No. 62). 

...Can we add to the title Mediatrix that of co-redemptrix? In the light of the above, the answer is affirmative. In fact the Council itself, so as to avoid any false interpretation, adds that the use of these titles is legitimate. But it must be understood "that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator" (ibid). ..."

[Zenit News Agency; Code: ZE02060101; Date: 2002-06-01, VATICAN CITY, JUNE 1, 2002, Papal Theologian Views Mary in Salvific History; The Sense in Which She Is Co-redeemer ; http://zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=21475]

Liturgy, and Marian feasts:
"...True devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary can be summed up in the phrase: "To Jesus through Mary." It is therefore fitting that Marian feasts are celebrated by the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. In this way Marian Devotion leads directly and clearly to Christ, the second person of the Blessed Trinity as should always be the case with true Marian devotion....Also, several Marian feasts are joint feasts of Mary and her Son, Jesus Christ; for example, the Annunciation. This is so because immediately after Mary consented to become the Mother of God the Incarnation took place, that is, God the Son the second person of the Blessed Trinity became man - a small unborn child in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

...The Fourth Glorious Mystery of the Rosary. This celebration originated in the 5th or 6th Century. St. Juvenal of Jerusalem stated as early as the Council of Chalcedon in 451 that Our Lady, after her death, was assumed body and soul into heaven.

Pope Pius XII, on 1 November 1950, in Munificentissimus Deus officially defined the doctrine of the Assumption as an article of the Catholic Faith. He stated:

". . . By the authority of Our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by Our Own authority, We pronounce, declare, and define as divinely revealed dogma: The Immaculate Mother of God, Mary ever Virgin, after her life on earth, was assumed, body and soul to the glory of heaven." [III, 44]

...."Since death is the punishment for sin, it might have seemed proper that the Divine Mother should have been exempt from it. But it pleased God to have Mary resemble Jesus in all things, and so He willed that even she should die, but a sweet and happy death. Three things tend to render death bitter: attachment to the world, remorse for one's sin, and the uncertainty of one's salvation. But Marys' death was entirely free from these causes of bitterness; for what soul was ever more detached from earthly goods and more united to God? Nor was it thinkable that any remorse of conscience could trouble her. who had been free from the least taint of actual or original sin; and she also had the fullest certainty of possessing divine grace. Death to her was very sweet, for it would unite her more closely to God by an eternal bond. The Doctors and Holy Fathers of the Church generally assert that she died from no infirmity, but from pure love"...

...Pope Pius XII in the Papal Encyclical Ad Coeli Reginam proposed the traditional doctrine on the Queenship of Mary and established this feast for the Universal Church.

...Pope Pius IX said of Mary: "Turning her maternal Heart toward us and dealing with the affair of our salvation, she is concerned with the whole human race. Constituted by the Lord Queen of Heaven and earth, and exalted above all choirs of Angels and the ranks of Saints in Heaven, standing at the right hand of Her only-begotten Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, she petitions most powerfully with Her maternal prayers, and she obtains what she seeks."
...Pope XII added: "We commend that on the festival there be renewed the consecration of the human race to the Immaculate Heart of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Upon this there is founded a great hope that there will rejoice in the triumph of religion and in Christian peace.

Therefore, let all approach with greater confidence now than before, to the throne of mercy and grace of our Queen and Mother to beg help in difficultly, light in darkness and solace in trouble and sorrow . . . . Whoever, therefore, honours the lady ruler of the Angels and of men - and let no one think themselves exempt from the payment of that tribute of a grateful and loving soul - let them call upon her as most truly Queen and as the Queen who brings the blessings of peace, that She may show us all, after this exile, Jesus, who will be our enduring peace and joy."

http://www.ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/FEAST.TXT


Mel Gibson used this resource also for his understandings. In Mary of Agreda's book 8, chapter VIII in the Mystical City of God, "THE CORONATION OF THE MOTHER OF GOD".

It states:

"....She assists forever at the right hand of her Son as Queen (Ps. 44, 10), Lady and Mistress of all creation, her dominion extending as far as that of her divine Son, although in a different manner.

After placing the most blessed Mary on this exalted and supereminent throne, the Lord declared to the courtiers of heaven all the privileges She should enjoy in virtue of this participation in his majesty.

...The incarnate Word said: "To my true and natural Mother belong all the creatures which were created and redeemed by Me; and of all things over which I am King, She too shall be the legitimate and supreme Queen." The Holy Ghost said: "Since She is called my beloved and chosen Spouse, She deserves to be crowned as Queen for all eternity."...the three divine Persons placed upon the head of the most blessed Mary a crown....

In the execution of this decree and privilege conceded to the Mistress of the world, the Almighty commanded all the courtiers of heaven, angels and men, to show Her obedience and recognize Her as their Queen and Lady. There was another mystery concealed in this wonder, namely, it was a recompense for the worship and veneration, which, as is clear from this history, the most blessed Mary, notwithstanding that She was the Mother of God, full of grace and holiness above the angels and saints, had bestowed upon the saints during her mortal pilgrimage.... 

yet now, when She was in possession of the kingdom, it was just, that She should be venerated, worshipped and extolled by them as her inferiors and vassals. This they also did in that most blessed state, in which all things are reduced to their proper proportion and order. Both the angelic spirits and the blessed souls, while rendering their adoration to the Lord with fear and worshipful reverence, rendered a like homage in its proportion to His most blessed Mother; and the saints who were there in their bodies prostrated themselves and gave bodily signs of their worship. All these demonstrations at the coronation of the Empress of heaven redounded wonderfully to her glory...."
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/7194/book8c8.html

 

SharpSword,

You are starting to make me uneasy with all of these facts.Couldn't you just put up some warm and fuzzy stuff?

 

I voted "no". I am not "assuming" anything based on the original scenario and the poll.

CJ