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Passover

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by robycop3, Sep 15, 2004.

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  1. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Time to present the FACTS about Passover as found in Scripture so as to leave no doubts, and, hopefully, to let this subject sleep for at least the rest of the year. Since this is a KJVO controversy, let's quote only from the KJV.

    First, God initiates Passover:

    Exodus 12:11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD's passover. And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
    15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.
    16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.

    Besides God's saying in V.14 that it's a MEMORIAL, He goes on to say why He began this observance:

    Exodus 12:27
    That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD's passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped.

    God had given them the time already, but here's a reiteration:

    Deuteronomy 16:6
    But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.



    Some people say that JESUS made the Passover an for everyone, but God had already made it clear that He had given the Passover to ISRAEL ALONE:

    Exodus 12:48
    And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
    Numbers 9:14
    And if a stranger shall sojourn among you, and will keep the passover unto the LORD; according to the ordinance of the passover, and according to the manner thereof, so shall he do: ye shall have one ordinance, both for the stranger, and for him that was born in the land.

    So God says, "If a non-Israeli WILL KEEP..."not, "MUST keep..."the same ordinances apply to all, including that the males must be circumcised. God does NOT command that gentiles keep Passover. After all, it was ISRAEL whom He had "passed over" when He initiated the observance. And in Jesus' time, few people besides the Jews were recognized as Israelis.(The Jews include Judah, Benjamin, & most of Levi, being reckoned as such from the days of Rehoboam.)NOWHERE DOES GOD COMMAND NON-ISRAELIS TO KEEP THE PASSOVER! He just simply says, "One set of ordinances for all who keep it."

    And JOHN says Passover was an observance of the JEWS, and not anyone else:

    John 6:4
    And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.
    John 11:55
    And the Jews' passover was nigh at hand: and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the passover, to purify themselves.

    And in that day, the Jews were the only distinct Israelis dealt with in the Scriptures about the events in Jesus' time and soon afterwards.

    And GOD HIMSELF declares that the whole seven days of unleavened bread is the Passover:
    Ezekiel 45:21
    In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.

    Read V.18 to see who gave that ordinance. This leaves NO DOUBT to any Christian that the entire 7-day period is called Passover by GOD HIMSELF! And Jesus' disciples continued to recognize the whole seven days as the Passover observance as God had commanded:
    Luke 22:1
    Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

    John 18:28
    Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.

    John 19:14
    And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

    Some people have said there were TWO passover feasts, which explains what John wrote about eating Passover after the paschal meal had taken place the previous evening. This is absurd. The Scriptures say that many came to Jerusalem to purify themselves for the Passover...and nothing would've made them go ballistic more than someone observing Passover at the wrong time, or doing it in any other way contrary to God's commands. Remember, God had said, "ONE set of ordinances for ALL who observe Passover".

    So, in conclusion, we see in Scripture that:

    1.) GOD initiated Passover when He led the people of ISRAEL out of Egypt.

    2.) He gave Passover ONLY TO ISRAEL, but ALLOWED(NOT "commanded") non-Israelis to observe it, under one set of rules for Israeli and gentile alike.

    3.) He gave ONE TIME, the evening after sunset of the 14th day of the month of Abib, to begin the observance.

    4. ) GOD HIMSELF says the WHOLE WEEK of unleavened bread, including the paschal meal at the beginning of those seven days, is called Passover. This statement of God's was followed by the Jews who arrested Jesus, as John records.

    5.) All this took place before Easter as we know it ever existed.

    Now, we must deal with a post by a member who apparently doesn't always believe the KJV except where it's convenient to support the incorrect premise that the KJV is perfect:


    And you have given much more sciptural support to the contrary. Nowhere in scripture, does God ever NOT make a distinction between the Passover and the days of unleavened bread.

    Totally wrong, as the above Scriptures from the KJV show.


    There is a reason for this also, which many of you do not seem to realize. My suggestion to you, is that you try to really understand what Passover is, and means, and then the same with the days of unleavened bread.

    GOD HIMSELF has made this quite plain in Exodus & in other places in the Pentateuch. I choose to believe GOD's clear, plain explanation, and not the imaginations of men. Yes, I know Paul called Jesus "our Passover" and likened sin in our flesh as leaven in dough(1 Cor.5:7), but we must remember that GOD commanded Israel to keep the Passover FOREVER(Ex.12;14) Yes, I realize that by His sacrifice of Himself Jesus fulfilled EVERY COMMAND OF SACRIFICE as given in the OT...but the Jews, then and now, continued to observe Passover, and for seven days.


    Then you just might understand in context and truth.

    Yes, please read everything in Scripture about Passover to realize that GOD gave it to ISRAEL, FOREVER, and that whe WHOLE week of unleavened bread is called passover by GOD HIMSELF.

    Go look at the thread that robycop started about Gipp.

    Yes, read it closely, and hopefully, choose to believe GOD(whose words in one English version I quoted) and not Dr. Gipp.


    Many disagree in their interpretations, however this does not prove the word Easter is wrong.

    GOD HIMSELF proves it wrong.

    Rather than start the "Easter vs Passover" thing again, let me call upon the KJVOs to prove BY SCRIPTURE that "Easter" is correct in Acts 12:4, and NOT by the circular reasoning that the AV men wrote it in Acts 12:4.
     
    #1 robycop3, Sep 15, 2004
  2. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------
    In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.

    --------------------------------------------------

    Notice the words "the passover" and then notice "a feast of seven days; unleavend bread shall be eaten".


    Your belief is based upon this verse alone, to which you have combined something to which is not combined but quite clearly and distinctly separate one from the other.


    I never said there were two Passover feasts. There was the Passover feast, and then there was the days of unleavend bread. The passover feast, starts the days of unleavened bread.


    Questions:

    What does Passover represent? (literally and spiritually)

    What does days of unleavend bread represent? (literally and spiritually)

    Do these two represent the same thing? (literally and spiritually)


    Are these two things fulfilled together? (literally and spiritually)


    What is Easter? (christian and pagan)


    When is the timing for all the above mentioned?


    What does the last half of Acts reveal to us about Herod?


    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
    #2 michelle, Sep 15, 2004
  3. natters

    natters New Member

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    Michelle, all your questions in the world are not going to get me to disbelieve God's word, specifically Luke 22:1.
     
    #3 natters, Sep 15, 2004
  4. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------
    Michelle, all your questions in the world are not going to get me to disbelieve God's word, specifically Luke 22:1.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    And all many of you are claiming, will not get me to EVER believe that God's word has errors. God's word of truth does not have errors. To say that Easter is wrong in my Holy Bible is wrong, when you finally come to answer all the above questions honestly and understand this correctly. Then maybe you will all stop attacking the scriptures, and trying to sow doubt of the words of God.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
    #4 michelle, Sep 15, 2004
  5. natters

    natters New Member

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    Sorry Michelle, but to answer your questions the way you want them answered requires Luke 22:1 to be a lie. Why are you trying to get me to think God lied?
     
    #5 natters, Sep 15, 2004
  6. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------
    Sorry Michelle, but to answer your questions the way you want them answered requires Luke 22:1 to be a lie. Why are you trying to get me to think God lied?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    NO, quite the opposite. It shows that your interpretation of Luke 22:1 is wrong.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
    #6 michelle, Sep 15, 2004
  7. natters

    natters New Member

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    My interpretation of Luke 22:1 is not wrong. The verse simply says "the feast of unleavened bread", "is called the Passover". So therefore I believe the feast of unleavened bread is called the Passover. This is because "the feast of unleavened bread", which is called Passover, is the entire week following the Passover Meal (Exd 23:15, Exd 34:18, Lev 23:6, 2 Chr 30:21, 2 Chr 35:17, Ezr 6:22). If my interpretation about Luke 22:1 is wrong (as you insist), then all those other OT scriptures that define "the feast of unleavened bread" become lies. Unacceptable.

    Yes, I understand that the Passover meal is on the 14th of the month, and is followed by a week of unleavened bread starting on the 15th. But scripture shows us (as Jews themselves confirm) that "Passover" can refer to 1. the specific meal on the 14th, 2. the entire day of the 14th, and 3. the entire period spanning the 14th plus the following week. Just like "Christmas" can refer to 1. the mass of Christ on Dec 25, 2. the entire day of the 25th, and 3. the entire season.

    My interpretation is the only one that fits all of scripture. Your interpretation requires various scriptures to be lies, just so you can hold on to KJV-onlyism and the idea that "Easter" was not simply a synonym for "Passover" in the 16th and 17th century.
     
    #7 natters, Sep 15, 2004
  8. TC

    TC Active Member
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    Don't forget Ezekiel 45:21

    It says:

    In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.

    Clearly in conjunction with Luke 22:1 and Acts 12, we can see that God said they were the same.
     
    #8 TC, Sep 15, 2004
  9. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    #9 Pastor_Bob, Sep 15, 2004
  10. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------
    My interpretation of Luke 22:1 is not wrong. The verse simply says "the feast of unleavened bread", "is called the Passover". So therefore I believe the feast of unleavened bread is called the Passover. This is because "the feast of unleavened bread", which is called Passover, is the entire week following the Passover Meal (Exd 23:15, Exd 34:18, Lev 23:6, 2 Chr 30:21, 2 Chr 35:17, Ezr 6:22). If my interpretation about Luke 22:1 is wrong (as you insist), then all those other OT scriptures that define "the feast of unleavened bread" become lies. Unacceptable
    --------------------------------------------------


    And you are guilty of doing, exactly what the Roman Catholic church has done. Taking a verse of scripture out of it's context, and not rightly dividing the word of truth.


    --------------------------------------------------
    In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.
    --------------------------------------------------

    The Passover is on the 14th day of the first month, as the scriptures declare. Then a feast of seven days, unleaved bread shall be eaten. There is the Passover feast, and then there is the feast of unleavened bread. Luke 22:1 says that the feast of unleavened bread was approaching which is called Passover. Scripture has told us clearly, that the Passover is on the 14th day, and this is the feast Luke is referring to, to which started the days of/feast of unleavened bread. Now please answer my above questions.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
    #10 michelle, Sep 15, 2004
  11. natters

    natters New Member

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    michelle said "And you are guilty of doing, exactly what the Roman Catholic church has done. Taking a verse of scripture out of it's context, and not rightly dividing the word of truth. "

    Really? Show where there is anything wrong in my first paragraph.

    michelle said "There is the Passover feast, and then there is the feast of unleavened bread. Luke 22:1 says that the feast of unleavened bread was approaching which is called Passover."

    I have added bold to your quote, to attempt to show you your own double-talk. Read your own quote, then answer with a simple "yes" or "no": Is Passover the "feast of unleavened bread" or not? Make up your mind. Yes or no.

    michelle said "Scripture has told us clearly, that the Passover is on the 14th day, and this is the feast Luke is referring to, to which started the days of/feast of unleavened bread. "

    Ah, so "the feast of unleavened bread" is not "the feast of unleavened bread", but actually comes before "the feast of unleavened bread". So what you're saying is that the order is this: first, "the feast of unleavened bread", then "the feast of unleavened bread". Gotcha.
     
    #11 natters, Sep 15, 2004
  12. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    In order to accept "Easter" as being the only correct translation, I'd have to believe in re-inspiration of scriptures. Since that belief compromises scripture in the first place, and since it is not supported by scripture itself, that belief must hence be categorically rejected by bible believing Christians. The word in the Greek is Passover (Pesach). Hence, the word in English is Passover.
     
    #12 Johnv, Sep 15, 2004
  13. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------
    have added bold to your quote, to attempt to show you your own double-talk. Read your own quote, then answer with a simple "yes" or "no": Is Passover the "feast of unleavened bread" or not? Make up your mind. Yes or no.
    --------------------------------------------------

    I am not double talking. You are misinterpreting the scriptures and attempting to draw me into circular arguments. Please answer my above questions. I have already answered and explained your questions. Why are you ignoring my questions and my answers?


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
    #13 michelle, Sep 15, 2004
  14. natters

    natters New Member

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    michelle said "I am not double talking."

    Yes you are. You said "the feast of unleavened bread" was after Passover. Then in the very next sentence, you said that "the feast of unleavened bread" was Passover. You are contradicting yourself, and expecting that to convince me of something.

    michelle said "I have already answered and explained your questions"

    No you didn't. I asked a simple yes/no question. You did not answer it.

    michelle said "Why are you ignoring my questions and my answers?"

    I already told you. Because they require either Luke 22:1 to be a lie, or OT verses that define "the feast of unleavened bread" to be a lie. And also because your questions and answers are double-talk. Once you clarify your double-talk in a way that someone with at least half an grasp on English grammar can understand, and in a way that doesn't make Luke 22:1 into a lie, then perhaps I will answer your questions.
     
    #14 natters, Sep 15, 2004
  15. natters

    natters New Member

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    In a post dated posted August 14, 2004 08:54 AM, michelle said "The feast of unleavened bread was and is the PASSOVER."

    In a post dated posted August 14, 2004 05:38 AM, michelle said "the feast of unleavened bread is NEVER called the PASSOVER".

    Deja vu all over again.
     
    #15 natters, Sep 15, 2004
  16. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony New Member

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    It has already been stated that in Acts 12:4 translated in the KJV the Greek word "Pascha" is used. It has also been stated that this word translated into English, whether today or in 1611, is Passover. This is true and cannot be disputed, only a rabid KJVOist would deny this because it destroys their view of a "perfect" Bible version.

    I have a pertinent question why if this word means "easter" did the KJV tranlate it as "Passover" in Matt.26:2
    John 2:13 & 23
    6:4, 11:55, 12:1, 13:1, 18:39
    19:14
    Heb. 11:28

    In fact the only place this Greek word is translated easter is in Acts 4:12. Now don't say it is a different word or that I am using a MV text. I am using the KJV and the Greek text used by the translators.

    To continue to deny what is undeniable is insanity.

    Bro Tony
     
    #16 Bro Tony, Sep 15, 2004
  17. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------
    In a post dated posted August 14, 2004 08:54 AM, michelle said "The feast of unleavened bread was and is the PASSOVER."
    --------------------------------------------------

    I see you have not a problem going to other threads to search for things to clearly misrepresent what others have said, to prove some false claim you have, but when referred to other threads for your questions that have already been given and provided elsewhere, you make not any effort, and then use this against others. Typical. This statement was referring to Luke 22:1.


    --------------------------------------------------
    In a post dated posted August 14, 2004 05:38 AM, michelle said "the feast of unleavened bread is NEVER called the PASSOVER".
    --------------------------------------------------


    This was reiterating the truth, that you all seem not to be able to grasp.

    --------------------------------------------------
    Deja vu all over again.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Yes, this is correct.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
    #17 michelle, Sep 15, 2004
  18. natters

    natters New Member

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    Whatever, michelle. I'm not going through this again with you. Bottom line, you are arguing for a distinction in English that was not present in the Greek (i.e. implied advanced revelation). You are arguing for a meaning of "Easter" that even the KJV translators themselves did not accept (i.e. they celebrated it, but not as a pagan holiday). The only link/article you were able to find that mentioned Luke 22:1 disagreed with you (all the other links avoided Luke 22:1 entirely). You reject simple reading of scripture, you talk in circles and contradict yourself (then try to justify it), and you won't answer a simple yes/no question. How do you expect me to carry on a reasonable discussion with someone who does all that? And why in the world would I want to do it a second time?
     
    #18 natters, Sep 15, 2004
  19. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------
    It has already been stated that in Acts 12:4 translated in the KJV the Greek word "Pascha" is used. It has also been stated that this word translated into English, whether today or in 1611, is Passover. This is true and cannot be disputed, only a rabid KJVOist would deny this because it destroys their view of a "perfect" Bible version.
    --------------------------------------------------


    Passover is an English word invented by Tyndale.


    Passover - 1530, coined by Tyndale from pass over, to translate Heb. pesah (see paschal), in reference to the Lord "passing over" the houses of the Israelites in Egypt when he killed the first-born of the Egyptians (Ex. xii).


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
    #19 michelle, Sep 15, 2004
  20. Trotter

    Trotter <img src =/6412.jpg>

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    Round and round and round she goes...where she'll stop, nobody knows.

    Natters was using direct quotes, Michelle. How can he be misrepresenting you by doing so?

    'Pascha' means one thing, and one thing only. Every other time it is used, it is translated as 'Passover.' But you expect us to believe that the KJV translaters were 're-inspired' to make to word 'pascha' read 'Easter' in Acts 4:12?

    If we only understood, then we would understand?

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
    #20 Trotter, Sep 15, 2004
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