Pastor and Teacher, or Pastor/Teacher?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by John of Japan, Aug 9, 2012.

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What do you think about the pastor and teacher?

Poll closed Aug 14, 2012.
  1. They are two separate offices in the church.

    31.6%
  2. They both indicate the same office, the pastor/teacher.

    68.4%
  3. I don't know.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Other

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. John of Japan

    John of Japan
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    I'm putting this in this forum since it is a matter of ecclesiology.

    On the NA28 thread in the Bible Versions forum the subject of Eph. 4:11 came up when I opined that John MacArthur was mistaken in his interpretation of it. MacArthur teaches that in that verse, the terms "pastors" and "teachers" are talking about the same individuals, based on the Granville Sharp rule of koine Greek grammar. So instead of both pastors and teachers in the church, we have pastor/teachers, one office.

    I object to this interpretation on several grounds.

    (1) MacArthur is misusing the Granville Sharp rule, which states that when there is the formation in the Greek, definite article + noun + kai (kai, "and") + noun, the two nouns are referring to the same person. But old Granville (the grammarian's name) only applied the rule to singular nouns, not plural, as MacArthur would have it. There are scholars who disagree with me, including a Greek scholar friend, but no less than Daniel Wallace did his dissertation on this, coming out on Granville's side. See a condensation of it at: http://bible.org/article/sharp-redivivus-reexamination-granville-sharp-rule. See a simpler explanation at: http://www.biblicalevangelist.org/index.php?id=1039&issue=Volume+41% 2C+Number+4.

    (2) I see nowhere else in the NT where we might interpret that pastor and teacher are one and the same.

    (3) It seems very plain from other passages that there are teachers who are not pastors: Acts 13:1, 1 Cor. 12:28, Heb. 5:12.

    Personally, I highly value many of my teachers (who were not pastors) in Bible college and seminary over the years, not to mention the many wonderful SS teachers I've had or known. I think it is "dissing" them to not include them as important to Christ's church.

    Caveat: I think one person can be a pastor, a teacher, or both. But they are not the same office.
     
  2. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf
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    I'm no Greek scholar, but I can appreciate the distinction between the two views.

    FWIW, I've always thought that Jesus and Paul were both 'pastor-teachers' and I have tried to emulate their ministry.
     
  3. John of Japan

    John of Japan
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    Hi, Mexdeaf.

    Jesus and Paul were both pastors and teachers, of course. Jesus was also called apostle and prophet in the NT, but no one wants to call Him a shepherd/apostle or a prophet/teacher. So I distinguish between Him being both a pastor and teacher, and the pastor/teacher paradigm, in which I see no room for a Bible teacher who is not a pastor, like for example many of our teachers at Temple: Fred Afman, Wymal Porter, etc.

    Also, think of the pastors who are great leaders and motivators, but lousy preachers and teachers. The pastor/teacher paradigm would leave them out as un-Biblical.
     
  4. Allan

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    I understand what you are saying but he is not the only person who states this, maybe the first person you have come across :)

    When I was at TTU in Chattanooga, TN (Freshman - 93) I first heard it from the Pastor at Highland Park in his message which contained that verse, and then again when going through NT Survey. At SouthEastern Theological Seminary it was viewed in the same light. In my understanding of the Greek I don't find the Granville Rule misused though it is uniquely used there.

    I find it interesting that teacher is never portrayed as a office as the other 4 are through the NT. One thing about the offices that stand out is not everyone is called to be an Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor... however all believers are called to teach and should be doing so on whatever level is comfortable to them (one on one, small groups, larger groups, ect..). Not just specific passages (which there are) but also the very term - Disciple - not only implies but in fact determines this.

    However it is this instance alone where the 'word' pastor is used to identify the office of Bishop but since I believe each of these offices given in the passage portray not just the name of the office, it portrays the function thereof and thus 'pastor' (since it is only used here to identify the office Bishop) is elaborated upon with the extension - teacher to qualify the function.

    Again, I AGREE the Gran. Rule is at least, unique here but I 'think' there is enough evidence in scripture to validate the usage here, and thus the distinction to the rule, as illustrated here.

    Just my nickel in the bucket.
     
    #4 Allan, Aug 10, 2012
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  5. John of Japan

    John of Japan
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    I've heard it occasionally down through the years, but MacArthur is the one who uses the GS rule specifically

    Would that have been Don Jennings? A great preacher, but I don't remember him referencing the Greek.

    Would your NT Survey teacher have been a pastor/teacher or just a teacher? :smilewinkgrin: I remember a number of our great teachers there who did not pastor: Fred Afman, Wymal Porter, Dennis Wisdom. My Uncle Roger Martin pastored for years, but then for many years was "just" a teacher.
    If Eph. 4:11 is a case of the GS applied to the plural, it is indeed unique there in the NT. However, there are plenty of cases in the NT where the plural construction is specifically about two groups, in particular many cases where scribes and Pharisees are mentioned: Matt. 5:20, 12:38, 15:1, etc. Or, where Pharisees and Sadducees appear: Matt. 3:7, 16:1, etc.

    Daniel Wallace points out that the Greek commentators who argue for pastor/teacher in Eph. 4:11 don't give linguistic proof. However, there are usages outside the NT where a case for the plural might be made. My Greek prof friend says he'd love to mentor a PhD student who wants to do a dissertation updating the GS.
    Actually, there are a number of passages where teachers are portrayed as an office: Acts 13:1, 1 Cor. 12:28-29 (where it is lined up with apostles and prophets), Heb. 5:12, etc. I think also that the teacher is in mind in 1 Tim. 5:17: "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine (didaskalia, "teaching")."
    Can you give me any instance (other than Eph. 4:11) where the pastor/teacher paradigm is clear?
    I heard it rattle in there. :wavey:
     
    #5 John of Japan, Aug 10, 2012
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  6. webdog

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    Since teaching is a requirement for being an elder (pastor) I would say all pastors are teachers...but not all teachers are pastors. Pastor / teacher would be similar to Pastor / husband of one wife / self controlled / not a drunk / good family leader / etc.
     
  7. TCGreek

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    If Dan B. Wallace is a Greek authority, then we're talking about two separate but overlapping groups here.
     
  8. Jerome

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    From The Sword and the Trowel:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=a7gVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA211

     
  9. IANMO(IAMNTMYOWN)

    IANMO(IAMNTMYOWN)
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    I believe that they are two distinct offices. A teacher is a guide and a giver, whereas, I view a pastor more as a leader and a challenger. They both can definitely be found in one individual, and I would find it especially important that a pastor be able to teach his flock. I don't see how a teacher would be synonymous with a pastor though, as it would not be necessary for his calling.
     
    #9 IANMO(IAMNTMYOWN), Aug 10, 2012
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  10. John of Japan

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    I'm curious. Where in Scripture would you find that the pastor must be a teacher? I view him as a leader, a motivator for the Christian life, a shepherd (counselor). He may or may not be a teacher.
     
  11. John of Japan

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    "If..."? :smilewinkgrin:
     
  12. John of Japan

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    I agree. Timothy was told to be "apt to teach" (1 Tim. 3:2, 2 Tim. 2:24), but not "be a teacher." The Greek is didaktikos, "able to teach, apt to teach" (Souter), "apt at teaching" (Abbot-Smith).
     
  13. Gina B

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    I've always thought all pastor are teachers, but most teachers aren't pastors.

    I haven't ever heard the concept that all teachers are pastors or that they're interchangeable.

    Do you have a link to MacArthur saying this or can you tell me the name of the book you read it in?
     
  14. webdog

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    If an elder is able to teach(1 Timothy 3) he would be a teacher. How else does one lead but by teaching? Maybe its a matter of semantics between teacher and able to teach. If someone has the ability to teach he's a teacher in my book.
     
  15. Jon-Marc

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    While not all teachers are pastors, all pastors are to be teachers.
     
  16. Tom Butler

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    I think that's right. The rendering of Eph 4:11 bears this out:
    Notice there are apostles; to some he gave prophets; to some, evangelists; and to some, pastors and teachers.

    Note that Paul did not say to some, pastors, and to some, teachers. He described some as being both pastors and teachers.

    I take this to mean to those who are called to be pastors will also have a teaching gift.

    And I agree that some who are given the teaching gift are not necessarily called to be pastors.
     
  17. John of Japan

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    Sorry, we're in the US until next week, so I don't have access to my MacArthur books. Maybe someone else can help you.

    Edited in: Okay, some surfing! Note that on John's church's website it refers to him as "Pastor-teacher" (www.gty.org). So he feels strongly about it. And here's a sermon where he talks about that: http://www.gty.org/resources/Sermons/1926.

    To show you that his exegesis is shallow in this sermon, he said, "I might add this, the word pastor only appears once in the whole Bible, and it's here." That's a mistake. The word "pastor" or "pastors" occurs 8 times in Jeremiah in addition to Eph. 4:11. Furthermore, the Greek word translated "pastors" there is poimen, usually translated "shepherd" and occuring 17 times in the NT.
     
    #17 John of Japan, Aug 10, 2012
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  18. John of Japan

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    I disagree. Don't you know people who could teach but don't?
     
  19. John of Japan

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    Can you give Scripture for these points?
     
  20. John of Japan

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    As I've been saying, I don't believe the Greek of Eph. 4:11 does not bear out this (though I'm open to argument on this). But even in English grammar I don't think you can get this. For example, what if I were to say, "There are some eggs, some bacon, and some coffee and donuts." You couldn't say then that the coffee and donuts are the same.
     

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