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Pastor endorses McCain from pulpit

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by dragonfly, Sep 28, 2008.

  1. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

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    I'm with you Brother... :thumbs:
     
  2. ajg1959

    ajg1959 New Member

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    Thank you for the background, I knew you would have some facts to share.

    Today, folks turn the first amendment around and use it to restrict the church instead of the state. I hope these pastors can get their crusade going strong enough to put a stop to this restriction.

    AJ
     
  3. John Toppass

    John Toppass Active Member
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    If a pastor wants to preach what is in God's word and then compare it to actions and voting records of political candidates running for election, I say more power and blessings to the church. If a member wants to leave because of this, then the church will probably be better off. It is always better to speak the truth than to shame yourself in silence.
     
  4. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    I have yet to see an Obama supporter speak to their endorsement of the murder of the unborn through their support of Obama.
     
  5. go2church

    go2church Active Member
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    This is a huge gamble these pastors are making. Never has any of these pastors been kept from speaking their mind as an individual, they are free to say whatever they want. As the pastor they are the representative voice of the church, still they are allowed to say whatever they want and can continue to do so as long as the church or denomination says they can.

    What changes is that most churches have applied for tax exempt status and have received it. They don't have to pay sales tax or property tax a HUGE benefit for churches. In return for not paying said taxes they agree to refrain from certain activities. Political endorsement is one of those activities.

    If you don't like that situation, don't accept the benefit, this is what Bob Jones University did. They did not want to conform to discrimination laws concerning marriage between "mixed races", stuck by there guns and gave up the benefit and are free to do and say as they wish.

    The huge gamble is that these few pastors could lose the benefit for everyone and don't think there are those lining up to argue in just this manner. Without the tax exempt benefit most churches would have to close their doors because they would not have the money to pay the property taxes on their buildings. Just think about the huge church campuses around this country...you don't think there is a tax assessment guy just waiting to put a number them!

    Seems like an awful big gamble to do something Jesus never did.
     
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    This is incorrect. Churches do not need to apply for tax exempt status.

    http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf
     
  7. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    Still waiting.
     
  8. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    In New York, you must apply to be exempt from state SALES tax.
     
  9. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I will not do so. I support Senator in spite of his stance on abortion.
     
  10. go2church

    go2church Active Member
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    Same situation in Texas concerning the sales tax. Also in New Mexico property is taxed if it is not in use by the church. So no buying 30 acres out somewhere and waiting, you pay property taxes until there is an operational church building on the property.

    Did you even read your what you linked to?

    From Page 5:
    All IRC section 501(c)(3) organizations, including church*es and religious organizations, must abide by certain rules:
    ■ their net earnings may not inure to any private
    shareholder or individual,
    ■ they must not provide a substantial benefit to private
    interests,
    ■ they must not devote a substantial part of their
    activities to attempting to influence legislation,
    ■ they must not participate in, or intervene in, any
    political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to)
    any candidate for public office, and
    ■ the organization’s purposes and activities may not
    be illegal or violate fundamental public policy.


    From Page 7:
    Under the Internal Revenue Code, all IRC section 501(c)(3) organizations, including churches and religious organizations, are absolutely prohibited from directly or
    indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office. Contributions to political cam*paign funds or public statements of position (verbal or written) made by or on behalf of the organization in favor of or in opposition to any candidate for public office clearly violate the prohibition against political campaign activity. Violation of this prohibition may result in denial or revocation of tax-exempt status and the imposition of certain excise tax.

    Churches may not need to apply for tax exempt status, but they have to abide by the rules to receive the benefits. You are listening to bad advisers concerned with pushing an agenda not the long term welfare of the individual churches. You are right you don't "lose" your tax exempt status, but you do have to pay taxes for the time you violated the rules.
     
  11. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    No church has ever had to do so nor lost their tax exempt status. And Matt Staver at Libertycounsel.org knows exactly what he is talking about as does the federal appellate court.
     
    #71 Revmitchell, Sep 30, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 30, 2008
  12. Petra-O IX

    Petra-O IX Active Member

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    Here is the problem with this scenerio. From voter education material that gets passed out and from educating from the pulpit it has been Democrats versus Republican no one else gets a comaparison and Christian voters need to be informed of all options not just two. I supect that if all options were up for camparisons a lot of folks would see that the Democratic party and the Republican party do not best represent their Christain veiws. Voting their conscience might mean a vote for a Libertarian candidate or a Constitutional Party Candidate. What I see when this is done is implied favoritism for either republican or democrat, so it is not a fair and honest way to present voter education.
     
  13. go2church

    go2church Active Member
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    Just because no church (and I don't take your word on that but I don't have time to check it out) has had to yet, doesn't mean they won't in the future. This is crazy thinking. In the little booklet they spell out how an individual pastor can speak their mind without jeopardizing the benefit of the CHURCH (shouldn't we be concerned about the churches) not paying taxes. Instead a group of folks with an clear agenda decide to "test" the waters and some willing sheep buy into it and now it is only a matter of time before this is in the courts and then its a crap shoot. There are already folks questioning the tax exempt status of churches and why they don't have to pay taxes adding up the numbers, dreaming of what to do with all the money they would now be receiving. So Liberty Counsel (and those like them) goes out, buys the bullets and loads the gun. Thanks guys that is real big of you. What exactly would the taxes be on good ole Liberty Mountain, bet Lynchburg could use a few of those dollars.
     
  14. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    The church is by no means in jeopardy as I have shown.
     
  15. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    :applause:

    On target and irrefutable.
     
  16. go2church

    go2church Active Member
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    You've shown no such thing. It is a very real possibility that a church could end up essentially being fined for not complying with the benefits agreement.

    Hey if your church has the extra money have at it, but we don't and would prefer not to have to in the future.

    BTW doesn't the church have bigger fish to fry? You know with the whole spending eternity in hell situation!?!
     
  17. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    “No church has ever lost its tax exempt status.” Matthew Staver, Founder of Liberty Counsel.

    During this current election cycle it is important to consider what we can and cannot do with regards to preaching and teaching on political issues and how that may effect the churches tax exempt status.

    “Recognition of Tax-Exempt Status
    Automatic Exemption for Churches
    Churches that meet the requirements of IRC section
    501(c)(3) are automatically considered tax exempt and
    are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of
    tax-exempt status from the IRS.
    Although there is no requirement to do so, many
    churches seek recognition of tax-exempt status from the
    IRS because such recognition assures church leaders,
    members, and contributors that the church is recognized
    as exempt and qualifies for related tax benefits.
    For example, contributors to a church that has been
    recognized as tax exempt would know that their contributions
    generally are tax-deductible.”

    http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

    Most people assume that churches are required to apply for a non-profit 501 (c)3 tax exempt status. However, according to the tax code churches have a special status and do not need to apply for tax exempt status. For the purposes of tax exemption to do so is redundant and unnecessary. There are other benefits of being incorporated but tax exempt status is not one of them.
    I would encourage every church member and Pastor to get the publication created and distributed by Matthew Staver founder of Liberty Counsel that delivers a wealth of information that debunks some myths about what churches can and cannot do in dealing with political issues and candidates. www.libertycounsel.org

    What you will discover is that a churches tax exempt status cannot be pulled from the church on a permanent basis. Since the exemption is automatic and does not rely on a letter of recognition from the IRS the automatic exemption applies to the church everyday. If the IRS attempts to pull the status from the church today, then tomorrow is a new day and the exemption begin a new. Not one church has ever lost its tax exempt status in the history of IRS oversight.

    Many churches apply for tax exempt status because they feel it is required. There have been approximately 5 churches that the IRS has pulled this letter of recognition from. However, since the tax status is automatic and does not require this application or letter of recognition their tax exempt status remains in tact.

    In 1992 the church Pierce Creek in Binghamton NY  did lose its letter after placing a full page add in USA Today and in the Washington Times. In this add expressly endorsed Bill Clinton for President of the United States. As a result of this the IRS  approached the church in 2002 long after the election was over. The IRS wanted to know if this church would promise not to do this again. However the church wanted to poke its finger in the eye of the IRS and simply told them to go away and to leave us alone. The IRS then revoked the churches letter of tax exempt status. At this point the church filed suit, not to get back its tax exempt status (since a letter is not required for churches) but to retain its letter. This case ended up at the federal court of appeals. This court said that the IRS could take the letter from the church, but it could not take the tax exempt status. This federal court of appeals specifically said the church does not lose its tax exempt status even though it ran full page adds endorsing a political candidate in two national newspapers. The courts ruling was as follows: “Because of the churches unique tax exempt status the revocation of the letter is likely to be more symbolic than substantial.”

    The federal government at the appellate court level recognizes that the churches tax exempt status is not to be lumped in with all other non-profit organizations. Its tax exempt status is outside of all others.

    Barry Lynn with the organization Americans United For Separation of Church and State has sent out countless numbers of warning letters to churches threatening to turn you in for any perceived political activity by the church. And to date he has not been successful in getting one single church prosecuted. Not one. His organization has been and remains today a complete failure in their endeavors. So why would we listen to men and organizations like these who are acting erroneously and unsuccessfully? They are not to be listened to or feared.

    Preachers of the gospel of Jesus Christ should preach boldly the message of a holy and righteous God. This requires that we speak to issues that are brought up in the product of campaigns. We should preach against the murder of unborn children, God ordained marriage between one man and one woman, we should preach against support of unbiblical religious and political positions. Let’s continue to proclaim the gospel with boldness.
     
  18. ajg1959

    ajg1959 New Member

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    Excellent post Rev, and its good to know this because I was under the impression that the tax position of the church was threatened.

    However, I still fear that with more and more democrats gaining office, that they may try to introduce legislation to deem anti-gay or anti-abortion sermons as hate crimes, and try to prosecute folks for it. I know that sounds far-fetched, but so did gay marriage just a few years ago, and look where we are now.

    AJ
     
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