Pastor: 'New Calvinists' Lack Passion for Holiness, Missions

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Jerome, Apr 19, 2012.

  1. Jerome

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  2. Doubting Thomas

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    Makse sense to me. :cool:
     
  3. 12strings

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    A longer quote from the same article:

     
  4. Thinkingstuff

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    Yeah, a Catholic Says that and its called a works based theology when in actuality that is all we're saying.
     
  5. Doubting Thomas

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    That is so true! :laugh:
     
  6. 12strings

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    This is from the website: www.defendingthecatholicfaith.com (this is a Catholic person writing about what the Catholic church believes and why):

    And from the Counsel of Trent:

    They are not saying the same thing.
     
  7. Thinkingstuff

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    I don't know if you have a problem reading the KJB because of old english but all that bolded part is saying is that you cannot be cleansed and continue to live a life of sin and not partake in our sanctification and expect salvation. Part of the reason we are "saved" to begin with is for our sanctification. Our salvation doesn't allow sin to have free reign in our lives. I expect modern english to be better suited to your reading. So pick up a Catachism and actually read the thing.

    and in fact each canon you quoted is saying more to that effect. Like faith without actions is dead. So on and so forth. Basically, the Catholic faith is about sanctification and is saying the same thing. You just like to try to pick and choose. You got to understand what terms mean.
     
    #7 Thinkingstuff, Apr 19, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 19, 2012
  8. Yeshua1

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    Looks like grace and works to me!

    death of Christ buys a catholic, thru the sacrament of water Baptism, a probationary period, type of temp eternal life, and up to how one lives his life, by partaking of the merits of the sacraments and his goosd works, to allow the Lord to judge him as worthy enough to be finally eternally saved...
     
  9. Thinkingstuff

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    In fact let me break it down for you what Catholics actually believe.

    question? Can we then forget the new life given us and continue in our sin just because we once believed with out taking on the mantel of new life? No. And that is where your canon's of trent come in because protestants were saying all you had to do is believe and you're guaranteed heaven in which case you don't have to give up your sinful lifestyle. Paul says God Forbid as does Trent in each canon you quoted. That is the context. So in essense yes we are saying the same thing.
     
  10. Thinkingstuff

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    It is no different then what Deyoung is saying in this quote
    Its saying the same thing. And the only difference between what you are saying and What Catholics say is this You are saying "that person was never born again to begin with though he made a proclimation of Faith" and the Catholic is saying "he never had faith" or if he did since no one apart from God knows another man's heart "he threw away his faith" Its not grace and works but as James says of Abraham Faith is completed by his actions.
     
  11. webdog

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    James never says our works "complete" our faith. Our works confirm our faith. Night and day difference. Your doctrine frustrates grace.
     
  12. Thinkingstuff

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    UH yeah he does.
    Clear as the nose on your face or should I say egg?

    In other words your faith is revealed by what you do. So it doesn't "frustrated the doctrine of grace" it compliments the doctrine of sanctification. And if you read my quotes of the CCC you would know that God enables us by his grace to live sanctified lives.

    If you live in sin you show your lack of faith. I show by what I do what my faith actually is.
     
    #12 Thinkingstuff, Apr 19, 2012
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  13. webdog

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    Beg the question, are we?
    You first need to understand the difference between justification and sanctification in order to understand grace.
    Never said differently.

    No, if you live in sin you are living accoding to the flesh and not the Spirit, something true believers are warned against by Paul.
     
  14. TCassidy

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    As I recently responded in another venue regarding a similar statement by a young pastor:

    The young man's criticism is overly broad and non-specific. It also seems to be just a bit condescending. Are there people in our churches who are not Spirit filled and Spirit led and not concerned with holiness and missions? Of course. Is it the norm? I tend to think not. I am an old man. I have been involved in ministry for over 50 years. One of the dangers for young men is to assume their experiences equate to the norm. As we grow older we realize that we don't know nearly as much as we thought we did. :)
     
  15. Thinkingstuff

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    So you are basically saying that Paul doesn't prefer that we live in sin but either sinful lives or sanctified lives we're all good? All it means is we are either flesh centered or spirit centered but ok in God's eyes? I don't think you understand why Paul warned against sinful living. Nor does it seem you understand the seriousness of sin. Paul says
    And here is where the total results of living according to the flesh or sin results in according to Paul and why Paul warns Christians not to do so
    It is clear the call to Sanctification and Holiness is not just prefered but required by Christians. Otherwise their sinful lifestyles will lead to death.

    It is also clear in this passage that those who live in sin do not have faith as they are not living by the Spirit and do not belong to God. So I stand by my statement
     
    #15 Thinkingstuff, Apr 20, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2012
  16. preacher4truth

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    You've completely missed the point.

    Again.

    Was he talking about sanctification/holiness of the believer, or about salvation? :wavey:

    That's right, he is talking sanctification of the believer, not salvation.

    You are correct that Catholicism is called a works based religion, as this is true.

    But being a Catholic you intertwine these two and make salvation works based, and so goes your entire system with its works as a basis to salvation intermixed with sacerdotalism, unBiblical sacraments, celibate priesthood which is unbiblical (an open door for pedophiles), nuns which is an unbiblical office, relics that are unbibilcal ('holy' water for instance) and many other idolatrous practices. These are things you attempt to deny but the elephant is still in the room.

    Drop all of these things and trust in Christ alone. They are unbiblical practices that you cannot live without because they are your comfort.
     
  17. Thinkingstuff

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    We need to be clear about one thing. I never ever miss a point.

    He's talking about sanctification as was I and all the quotes I put in from the Catachism. You need to keep up. How many times have I told you and others here that most of what we are talking about when it comes to Catholicism has to do with Sanctification not attonment. Catholics never claim to earn salvation of their own accord. However by help of Grace Catholics attempt to live sanctified lives as is our duty and call by God.

    I never said otherwise. You keep placing on the Church something it doesn't believe.

    No this is absolutely false.

    Nope salvation is never works based. God saves us. We can't save ourselves. Once we are saved we can cooperate with God's grace and please him by our obedience. But that is not earning salvation. You're the one confusing what Catholics are saying.

    Again you are wrong on all counts. All counts. all the Sacraments can be found in scripture. Paul speaks to Church leaders being celebate and in fact for all christians who choose celebacy. Celebacy does not open the door to pedophilia the sexual revolution and sin did that. Nuns aren't an office, relics have nothing to do with salvation and so the elephant is in your own imaginings.

    Catholics do trust in Christ alone. Not some ceberal belief that isn't followed up by lifestyle. We believe faith is more than intellectual assent as you do.
    Again false. You scored an F on your catholic knowledge. Stop reading the propaganda and get to the truth.
     
  18. billwald

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    See for yourselves how Dutch Calvinists put their money where their mouths are:

    FROM

    http://crcna.org/pages/agencies_about.cfm

    Agencies & Specialized Ministries
    The ministries of the Christian Reformed Church share Christ's love with millions of people around the world. Our agencies of evangelism, education, relief and development are active in 40 countries and our radio and television broadcasts blanket the globe. The breadth of these ministries demonstrates our obedience to the Great Commission. The support of God's people through prayers, gifts and ministry shares makes this work possible.

    Denominational Agencies
    Back to God Ministries International

    Through the worldwide media ministry of Back to God Ministries International, the Christian Reformed Church broadcasts the gospel in nine languages to people in almost 200 countries. (show/hide more)

    Calvin College

    Calvin College, established in 1876, has become one of the largest Christian colleges in North America, and also one of the most recognized as a center for liberal arts teaching and scholarship, undergirded by a Reformed world and life view. (show/hide more)

    Calvin Theological Seminary

    Calvin Theological Seminary trains pastors and other leaders for ministry in today’s church. Its primary program is preparing congregational pastors. Its strong emphasis on Bible, theology, and ministry training provides the deep grounding needed to be effective and relevant in today’s world. (show/hide more)

    Christian Reformed Home Missions

    Christian Reformed Home Missions serves the Christian Reformed Church by providing leadership assistance for
    evangelism and discipleship to 47 classes and nearly 1,000 Christian Reformed churches in Canada and the United States. (show/hide more)

    Christian Reformed World Missions

    Christian Reformed World Missions is the global evangelism arm of the Christian Reformed Church. Since 1888, World Missions has been leading the CRC to respond obediently to our Lord's commission to witness to the good news of God's kingdom and to make disciples of all nations. (show/hide more)

    Christian Reformed World Relief Committee

    The Christian Reformed World Relief Committee (CRWRC) is the relief and development organization of the Christian Reformed Church. It responds on your behalf to the needs of people around the world who are suffering from poverty, hunger, disaster, and injustice. (show/hide more)

    Faith Alive Christian Resources

    Faith Alive Christian Resources, a ministry of the Christian Reformed Church, is one of the leading publishers of Reformed resources in North America. (show/hide more)

    Denominational Ministries
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    Aboriginal Ministries
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  19. billwald

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    >Calvinism, named after 16th century reformer John Calvin, emphasizes God’s sovereignty and downplays human agency in salvation.

    Don't think the writer ever read what Calvin emphasized. Read it for yourselves:

    http://www.reformed.org/master/index.html?mainframe=/books/institutes/

    >If God is involved in both choosing the elect and prompting the human heart to respond in faith, DeYoung said, some assume that striving to live godly lives isn’t that important.

    ASSUMES facts not in evidence!


    >“The call to Christian preaching should never be to make people better or virtuous or moral apart from the power of the spirit and the truth of the gospel and the centrality of faith,” he said. On the other hand: “The realities of the Spirit and the faith do not eliminate the need for human effort. Do not let effort be a four-letter word in your Christian vocabulary.”

    On the other hand, neither will posting the Ten Commandments in public places and passing "Christian" morality laws "make people better or virtuous or moral apart from the power of the spirit and the truth of the gospel and the centrality of faith . . . .”
     
  20. pilgrim_99

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    I'm not sure that the article, particularly the headline, is quite accurate, especially with regard to missions. ABP does some good reporting at times but let's not forget that it is essentially the mouthpiece of the CBF.

    Regarding the SBC and similar groups, it seems to me that it's the Calvinists (along with some others, to be sure) who are making the big push for foreign missions, with many non-Calvinists often arguing that we mustn't neglect ministry here at home, etc. The "Great Commission Resurgence" in the SBC was seen by some as at least in part a "Calvinist takeover" as well as a megachurch takeover. The big emphasis with that is cutting out perceived bureaucratic waste and directing more resources toward foreign missions. A renewed focus on foreign missions, especially the effort to mobilize local churches, (and not just be content to send $$ to the CP, often never even meeting a missionary) is arguably one of the differences between the "New Calvinism" and the "Old Calvinism."

    Now with regard to personal holiness, IMO those who would question the New Calvinists in that regard have a point, although not necessarily quite accurately depending on who is making the criticism. There are the Driscoll types of course, but there is also a pernicious teaching that DeYoung addresses here in particular that teaches a very quietistic model of sanctification that decries any effort on the believer's part with regard to personal holiness.

    But overall, I've found Calvinists, generally speaking, to have a higher emphasis on holiness than many others. To give one example, with few exceptions they are the ones that emphasize church discipline in cases of egregious sin whereas the non-Calvinist (often Semi-Pelagian) ministries who focus almost exclusively on obtaining decisions too often just look the other way with regard to even notorious and public sin in their midst. (That's not to say, of course, that no non-Calvinist ministries emphasize healthy churches, meaningful church membership and discipline when necessary.)

    There's much more to holiness than "We don't drink, smoke or chew and we don't go with girls that do."
     
    #20 pilgrim_99, Apr 20, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2012

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