pastors and deacons

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Jim1999, Oct 2, 2006.

  1. Jim1999

    Jim1999
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    0
    For many years, the Baptist groups I know, have upheld that there are two offices in the local church; pastors and deacons. We have always asserted that the various designations given in the new testament, elders, bishop, pastors, etc., were all signifying the same thing.

    Why are we making so much about these various titles in the new Testament now? In Canada, we still maintain two offices; pastors and deacons.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  2. saturneptune

    saturneptune
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jim,
    You are right about the offices. There are some Baptist churches in our area (SBC) that are going to an elder form of government.
     
  3. El_Guero

    El_Guero
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,714
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jim

    Baptist groups (especially those around the SBC orbit) have changed drastically over the last 3 decades.

    IMHO. I still like the 2 office view.



     
  4. bapmom

    bapmom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    0
    2 offices, yes....but "pastors, bishops and elders" are a different office than "deacon".

    "deacons" ought to be men of good standing in the church, but they have no authority. Whereas "pastor/bishop/elder" signifies some sort of authority.
     
  5. Jim1999

    Jim1999
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    0
    In Canada, our deacons are the officers of the church. They are the ones who write and approve the local church's declaration of faith.

    The pastors are somewhat transient, They go from church to church "pastoring".

    As I said, two offices; pastors and deacons.....I never said anything about their qualifications.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  6. bapmom

    bapmom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jim,

    perhaps then there is the reason we don't seem to be communicating this issue well. That is a significant difference in how we see deacons.

    Pastors are not supposed to be "transient", they are supposed to stay and pastor their church. Our deacons change every three years (at least in my church, other churches have different timelines), and they are voted in or approved by the congregation.

    Biblically, the deacons had no decision-making powers in the churches. That was all up to the elder/bishop/pastors.
     
  7. Jerome

    Jerome
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    5,617
    Likes Received:
    44
    The pastors have all of the decision-making powers except appointing deacons? I don't get it.
     
  8. Jim1999

    Jim1999
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not to be critical, but I have said many times, I live in the 21st century and things have changed over the years. We don't even live in the Middle East. The church either changes with the times, or it stagnates. I am not talking about doctrines, but rather local customs.

    I am not sure that deacons did not involve decision making, even in New Testament times, or at least sometime iin the first two centuries. We read history for that.

    Pastors, in my experience, are transient in that they change charges after about four years. It takes a very blessed man to stay longer, and few do it successfully.

    The Methodist have a four-year limit...not sure that is true to-day, but it was initially.

    Deacons are changed, according to the local church set up. In most of my churches, they rotated so that not all the deacons left office at the same time. Also, there was no reason why the same person could not be reelected to office. Some smaller churches have had lifelong deacons......until new men came into the church.

    As a pastor, I never considered the local church as "mine". I was there to serve the Lord. I never got involved in their decisions, except where they asked for my opinion. I was a member of each board as ex-officio only.

    I always wanted to preach myself out of a job, and move on.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  9. Salamander

    Salamander
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    3,965
    Likes Received:
    0
    Maybe I should start another thread, but since "transient" pastors has been introduced, just how transient is a pastor to be in thise churches where the pastor leads the assembly?

    I know some pastors seem to be likened to evangelists in that they leave their flock to other preachers in the church as if "they are trusted and need the practice" while the pastor goes about preaching mission conferences and revivals as to supplement his income.

    Maybe I am wrong, but the idea of a pastor is not to be the "president" of the church, but the pastor who shepherds the sheep?

    I know many pastors who say they don't get "too involved' with their members using the excuse in not visiting them at their homes saying, "Some people don't want the preacher to come to their house and he should always be invited first". But what about being the undershepherd of the Over Shepherd?

    Maybe I got pastoring all wrong, but I thought a shepherd/pastor was to tend to his sheep and be the vinedresser of his own vineyard and not a politician going about shearing other pastors' sheep and tending other vineyards?:flower:
     
  10. NateT

    NateT
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2000
    Messages:
    886
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not familiar with Loan Oak, KY, but the churches in Louisville that I know that are SBC w/ Elders are not "an elder form of government" if by that you mean the elders make all the decisions. My church has elders and deacons and church meeting with congregational votes to decide the path of the church. The elders recommend things from time to time, but have yet to have them force something on the church.
     
  11. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    The Bible teaches of two gifted groups within the local church - elders and deacons. Both are from Hebrew origins that were common in the OT and the synagogues and carried into the organization of the church

    Elders (sometimes labeled by their duty/role as pastor, biship, overseer, preacher, etc, but the biblical title is Elder, not pastor) are ordained within the church to teach and administrate

    Deacons (shamash or helper in the synagogue, men/women) were appointed to serve or minister to the local church. They were not a board or governing or even a "group", but individuals selected for physical responsibilities of the group.

    Other gifts to the early church - apostles, prophets, evangelists - were limited and specialized and, after the initial generation, were no longer in effect. Elder Timothy was to do the work of an evangelist, etc.

    Just a little more info to help everyone
     
  12. bapmom

    bapmom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jerome, that is not what I said...at least it is not what I meant to say. The deacons are people chosen from the congregation to act as servers in the church, and in most they also act as a group that advises the pastor/s in decisions. Our congregation has a voting process for the deacons, but they are men brought before the congregation by the pastor. If any individual has a problem with any of the men mentioned, they are free to go to the pastor and let him know. He then considers the problem.
    A wise pastor will not make all decisions purely on his own....he will get counsel and advice from many different sources. But, this fact does not impart "authority" to those places where he gets counsel.
     
  13. bapmom

    bapmom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    0

    "preach yourself out of a job"? I don't know how anyone would even think that that was possible.

    What happened to staying and being a part of the church? Of course I would think a pastor could call the church "HIS church", just like I call it MY church. Thats like saying I can't say "MY body" because Im saved and I belong to God now.

    My pastor (yes, he's married and belongs to another woman, and yet I call him MY pastor) has been at our church for about 15 years now and still goin' strong. IF a man is willing to take the hardships and the heartaches along with the accolades than he will stay on and love on the people that God has given him charge over. MHO
     
  14. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    This kind of sounds like the arguments made for ordaining homosexuals and women.
     
  15. Jerome

    Jerome
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    5,617
    Likes Received:
    44
    How is the label/title distinction practiced?

    Since we use the Greek-derived word deacon rather than the common English word servant, for consistency's sake, why not use presbyter rather than elder? (or vice versa)
     
  16. bapmom

    bapmom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    0
    what difference does it make either way? The two offices are defined by their jobs....no matter what word we use to label the "office".

    A pastor/bishop/elder/overseer is supposed to be a man who leads, has decision-making powers, cares for the people (which he can't do if he doesn't know them), and is responsible for teaching, exhorting, rebuking, discipling, etc.

    A deacon, in the role of deacon, would do the physical things that widows in the church are unable to do for themselves, and basically do whatever things the pastor needs done. Since the pastor cannot be in multiple places at once, he has helpers/servants/deacons to aid him.
     
  17. saturneptune

    saturneptune
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    0

    The elders make some decisions and the congregation makes others. Our church only has deacons and a pastor. All matters are voted on by the congregation. If elders in the churches where you live do not help govern, what is their purpose?
     
    #17 saturneptune, Oct 2, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 2, 2006
  18. bapmom

    bapmom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    0
    every member of a church "helps govern". We all have a vote in many matters that come before the congregation.

    but a deacon's main role is not in governing. Their main role is service. Our deacons mow lawns, shovel snow, serve the Lord's Supper to the rest of the congregation, make sure the widows are cared for, and then also serve as a "sounding board" for the pastor when he needs some advice or counsel on larger matters of the church.
     
  19. Jim1999

    Jim1999
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think if I lived in the USA, I would be either Reformed Church or Presbyterian. From what I read about baptists, it would not be my choice. I am too much old school.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  20. J.D.

    J.D.
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    8
    None of which are listed as duties for a deacon in the bible. There are no deacons in Acts 6 so don't show me that.

    These are familial duties. Deacons, or anyone else in the church for that matter, should not be doing these things unless there is lack of family support. That's why the bible talks about "widows indeed". If a widow has sons, or a brother, or a father, or any other capable relative, or has sufficient resources to hire; then it does not fall on the church to do these type of things.
     

Share This Page

Loading...