Pastors pay

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by ChristAlone, Sep 8, 2001.

  1. ChristAlone

    ChristAlone
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    How should we determind the amount that we pay our Pastors?
     
  2. SaggyWoman

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    Some has to do with prayer.

    Some has to do with your ability to pay.

    Some has to do with the education of the pastor.
     
  3. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Let me throw another factor into the mix...

    Do you want a full-time pastor who can really devote the majority of hhis day to being your pastor...or do you want a bi-vocational pastor who is going to work himself to death trying to keep up a Christian witness at his second job while being your pastor...

    If you would like the first...make sure you pay that person enough to where that person doesn't have to take a second job...

    As a person who was a bi-vocational pastor at one time...if you long to have a BV pastor...you are going to have to back off your expectations of time and growth quite a bit and probably have the congregation helping the pastor do some of what a normal full-time pastor would do...

    just a thought,

    Joseph
     
  4. preacher

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    Could you explain what you mean by working one's self to death to keep up a christian witness?

    [ September 09, 2001: Message edited by: preacher ]
     
  5. Joseph_Botwinick

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    I believe part of a good Christian witness is being the best employee you can be nomatter who you are working for. I worked night and day with little or no sleep trying to keep up with family, church work, and trying to do the best job I could at my second job. I feel that if I took that second job and didn't do the best job I could, that I would be exhibiting a bad Christian witness. That is what I mean.

    Joseph
     
  6. livin'intheword

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Some has to do with the education of the pastor.


    I don't understand how the education of a Pastor could have anything to do with his pay check. God fits the call, he doesn't call the fit. If that were true, Goodnes my Pastor would have money coming out his EARS!
    I believe that God will lead you on what you should give as tithe. Some people give more, because they have "extra money" wrapped up in their pay check. Some give less because they lack the faith in God it takes to put that money where it belongs doing the work of the Lord, rather keeping it to "Keep up with the Jones." God has blessed Matt, my husband with a good job in which to support our family. God has blessed my Pastor, he called him to lead his flock while here on earth. It is my duty to support my Pastor and support him well. God gave him to us not to just listen to three times a week, and then not think of him when it comes time to make out the tithe check. If he is a Bible believin', Bible preachin' full of the Holy Ghost leadin' Pastor, support him well. If he isn't, Then brother I submit to you that maybe you need to fine one that is. Being a Pastor is rough enough without having to worry about the lights being shut off on you while you're in the middle of researching a message because someone wasn't happy with your education while paying tithes. :rolleyes: I love my Pastor, and I want him and his wife to have just as many blessings as Matt and I have recieved.

    -Paula

    [ September 10, 2001: Message edited by: livin'intheword ]
     
  7. Michele

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    Some Pastor's still get paid with chickens and someone washing their clothes,and with someone giving them a car to drive and so on.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. livin'intheword

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  9. Phillip

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by livin'intheword:
    Some has to do with the education of the pastor.


    I don't understand how the education of a Pastor could have anything to do with his pay check.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I agree with most of your post, but would like to try to clarify why education has something (not everything) to do with a paycheck. In the secular world, as in the pastor's world the more years a person goes to college, usually the more money he makes because of his advanced studies. For instance, I am a engineer by trade, but I went back to school and obtained an MBA which almost instantly put me into a higher pay bracket because of my knowledge in business that could be used in marketing our products, contract negotiations and many other issues. Pastors are no different and it is only fair that they receive pay for taking the extra time (and money) to achieve an advanced degree. This definitely does NOT mean the pastor is better or worse. I know a Phd who cannot preach a sermon unless he writes it out completely and practices it 8 times before he can speak it. He then screams it out, much like young disc jockeys trying to sound like big-time stars when they first start their career. Then I have seen pastors with an Associate Degree who have self-studied and can write and give some of the BEST sermons I have ever heard, actually making last minute changes as the Holy Spirit guides him during the song service. Anyway, my point is, that it is VERY costly to go to a private school and obtain an advanced degree and this should be used as a consideration when setting a salary offering (offering the pastor an amount--not taking up an offering). But, as you said in your post, many other factors should be included in the decision such as car and housing allowances, how far the pastor may have to move (if he is new to your church). The cost of living in your area. And, just how good of a pastor is he. If he is somebody that you feel the Lord wants you to keep, then make sure he gets a fair and equatable amount so he doesn't have to start sending out resumes. Although preachers have a better tax structure in general than we do, they still have to eat and would like enough left over for some entertainment and possibly savings. The first thing to do is get down on your knees and pray about it. I hope this helped just a little bit, I tend to ramble. ;)
     
  10. Ernie Brazee

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    You must love your pastor....you allow him to escape periodically to the land where there are few cars and NO freeways (LOL)

    Ernie Brazee
    The NODAK who visted last month

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by livin'intheword:
    Some has to do with the education of the pastor.


    I don't understand how the education of a Pastor could have anything to do with his pay check. God fits the call, he doesn't call the fit. If that were true, Goodnes my Pastor would have money coming out his EARS!
    I believe that God will lead you on what you should give as tithe. Some people give more, because they have "extra money" wrapped up in their pay check. Some give less because they lack the faith in God it takes to put that money where it belongs doing the work of the Lord, rather keeping it to "Keep up with the Jones." God has blessed Matt, my husband with a good job in which to support our family. God has blessed my Pastor, he called him to lead his flock while here on earth. It is my duty to support my Pastor and support him well. God gave him to us not to just listen to three times a week, and then not think of him when it comes time to make out the tithe check. If he is a Bible believin', Bible preachin' full of the Holy Ghost leadin' Pastor, support him well. If he isn't, Then brother I submit to you that maybe you need to fine one that is. Being a Pastor is rough enough without having to worry about the lights being shut off on you while you're in the middle of researching a message because someone wasn't happy with your education while paying tithes. :rolleyes: I love my Pastor, and I want him and his wife to have just as many blessings as Matt and I have recieved.

    -Paula

    [ September 10, 2001: Message edited by: livin'intheword ]
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
     
  11. ellis

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    Since I am on the budget committee of my church, I'll share what we have determined.

    Education matters, especially in a church where the majority of the members have college degrees and are engaged in professional occupations. If your pastor went to the trouble to go to college and seminary in order to serve your church to the best of his ability, he needs to be compensated.

    We take what we consider to be the average professional salary in our area, and add to that figure the cost of full health coverage (including life insurance, dental and vision coverage). We figure in one fourteenth of the current cost of seven years of college and or seminary. Add to that a monthly housing allowance and you have a decent salary for a full time pastor that the church basically expects to be available regularly, at odd hours and in attendance at all church functions.

    In recent years, we have added the benefit of allowing our pastor to send his children to Christian school, if he so desires, and we provide him with 80 percent of whatever the tuition expense is at the school he and his wife choose.
     
  12. rlvaughn

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    Paying a pastor more based on the amount of education he has seems practical and logical when musing from a secular standpoint. But what portions of scripture would teach it or set such a precedent? Would you recommend that Paul be paid more than Peter, seeing he had a much better education?
     
  13. ellis

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    On what basis are you claiming that Paul had a better education than Peter?

    Formal education was extremely limited in their day, granted. But the Jewish Synagogue was the finest kind of Bible school in existence and no Jewish male would have grown up without this basic education. Paul got his "theological training" so to speak, under the master teacher Gamaliel, of the Jewish Sanhedrin, and the Pharisees. According to tradition, this was about three years worth of dialogue, following him around, serving him, hearing him expound the scriptures and doing "field work".

    Who was the rabbi that chose Peter as a disciple, and gave him his three year theological training?

    This is the context of Paul's words to Timothy:

    Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. II Timothy 2:15.

    The indication of "one approved", in the language of the apostle Paul, are the same words that were applied to those who had received rabinnical training in the Temple. The idea is that they were "degreed" or "accredited". Timothy was accredited by Paul in the same way that Paul had been accredited by Gamaliel, the difference being that Paul had come to understand his need for a relationship to Christ in the meantime.

    Not all theological training is going to be gained in a formal educational setting. But that is really of no concern, since a God-called pastor is genuinely going to seek out a thorough education and training in the Word before he preaches, even if it is through an informal discipleship relationship. He's still invested a lot of time. He deserves to be paid accordingly.
     
  14. rlvaughn

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    Ellis, I think you have made the point quite well that all theological training is not received in a formal school, university, etc., and I fully agree. No argument from me on any of that. But the comparison that was made in the foregoing posts was to those who had received college educations and therefore are compensated accordingly. This seemed to be the basis of your argument (and that of Phillip). If you think I meant that Paul was more religiously educated and spiritually mature than Peter, let me assure that I think nothing of the kind. But it is without question that the secular world of the day recognized Paul as a more educated man than Peter. Much of your own argument negates the previous argument that those who have gotten a degree should be paid more. In your formula a percentage of the cost of college is figured into the salary. How would you figure in the cost of an informal discipleship relationship? If I am misunderstanding you, forgive me. But in the first post, you said "If your pastor went to the trouble to go to college and seminary in order to serve your church to the best of his ability, he needs to be compensated." But in your second post you say, "But that is really of no concern, since a God-called pastor is genuinely going to seek out a thorough education and training in the Word before he preaches, even if it is through an informal discipleship relationship. He's still invested a lot of time. He deserves to be paid accordingly." I believe that it is not the source of the education (whether college or informal) that is important, but that one should be thoroughly trained in the Word. Education in a formal setting should not be the basis of higher salaries for pastors. It is certainly the formal setting (and particularly the degree) that genereally provides the for much higher salaries in the secular world.
     
  15. rlvaughn

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    In my opinion, there are two scriptural things that are generally not taken into account when studying the issue of "paying pastors". (1) The duties of the pastor (as pastor) are quite narrow and specific. In many churches today, there is a supposition that they are hiring the pastor to visit, witness, go to nursing homes and hospitals, etc. The duties of a pastor are actually to train the congregation to do the work. Now he, AS a Christian and church member, should do this work as well. But AS PASTOR, it is not his duty to visit those who are sick in the hospital. (2) The New Testament example is a plurality of equal elders (pastors). This would throw a kink into the paying of pastors in most present day Baptist churches.
     
  16. Dr. Bob

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    Thoughts on Jewish Education -

    Jewish boys had basic training in the synagogue under a Pharisee (rabbi) until puberty. Only the most brilliant then went on for further training.

    After rabinnical training in Jerusalem only the brightest of the bright went on to one of the two major "theological schools" of the day - in Tarsus or Alexandria.

    Anyone who has studied the Greek NT (and I make no claim to being a great scholar) can see the personality and educational differences in the NT writers.

    Peter was a fisherman. Finished basic primary school at 12. Got theology from Jesus, but trust me, didn't take grammar lessons! And talk about making up new words? Peter's writings (Mark which according to Papias was a sermon of Peter written by John Mark, I&II Peter and sermons in Acts) are really hard to translate.

    John was also a fisherman, but owner and had an equivalent of a h.s. education. Every Greek student starts in I John or John to translate nice sentences that any teacher would be proud of (which).

    Paul had the Ph.D. from Tarsus (Gamaliel) and his writings show this. Long, intricate sentence structure (I diagram all verses before expository preaching so I say what GOD said and not what Bob thinks), huge words. Look in the English; some sentences go on for 15 verses!

    God the Holy Spirit guided and superintended the writing so that God's Word was written, not dictated, allowing each writers' styles to be evident.
     
  17. ellis

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    I tend to think, influenced by the thinking on the subject in my church, that some level of formal education is pretty much a prerequisite to a calling to serve as a pastor in the majority of Baptist churches.

    Referencing what I have heard from ministers I have known, the idea is that if God has genuinely called you to ministry, he will also direct you toward theological education.

    Granted, there are some that aren't able to go back and devote that kind of time, but there are options available to them as well. The local Baptist college has a center for Biblical Studies that allows pastors with no formal training to take courses toward a diploma. They're right in the same classrooms as the B.A. students, getting the same stuff.

    It would not be possible for a pastor without a formal education in ministry or theology to serve in my church. The educational level of our congregation precludes that. Virtually all of our senior pastors that I can remember have had a D.Min., a Th.D. or a double master's in theology and Biblical languages.

    Even the "self-educated" pastor is benefitting from someone else's formal education, and there are churches where these men can, and do serve effectively. One of my father's best friends is a bi-vocational pastor who is as well educated, at his own initiative, than any man who has served in our pulpit. But he followed the Bible's principles of good discipleship to avoid some of the errors that can come from being self -educated in isolation. It took him half a lifetime to get what he now has. FOrtunately, his church, a congregation of about 50 people, recognizes that and compensates him to the best of their ability.

    Our church pays our pastor based on his previous experience and his educational level. We have a base salary that we calculate (I've described it in an earlier post) and then consider his experience, which will be of benefit to us and to his ministry here, and his education, which will do the same. We believe we are well within the bounds of scripture in doing this.

    As to Peter's formal education, Dr. Bob, granted, he's a rough old fisherman. But his formal education most likely didn't stop at 12. As a male member of the synagogue, he also had a responsibility to participate in its teaching ministry. And I'd put Jesus up there over old Gamaliel any day. Yes, his writing is rough to translate, but he was an Aramaic speaker, a Hebraic Jew and he probably had as much trouble with the Greek language as those of us in the Southwest do with the Spanish that has now become a necessity for those of us in business.
     
  18. rlvaughn

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ellis:
    ...It would not be possible for a pastor without a formal education in ministry or theology to serve in my church. The educational level of our congregation precludes that...One of my father's best friends is a bi-vocational pastor who is as well educated, at his own initiative, as any man who has served in our pulpit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    What kind of standard do we have if the self-educated man, who is "as well-educated as any", cannot serve a particular church because he does not have a FORMAL education? Isn't that putting more emphasis on the degree held that the actual education possessed? Ellis, if the friend you mention has IN FACT as good of an education as any man who has pastored your church, why should he not be qualified to pastor it?

    As for Jesus and Gamaliel - there is no comparison. But isn't the standards that we are developing in our churches today saying that those who can show they have studied with "Gamaliel" are better prepared to pastor our churches than those who have only been with Jesus.

    P.S. - I am in no way opposing a formal education; rather I am opposing an attitude that disqualifies highly qualified men because they have not gone the standard route. Much of this appears to show more concern for looks than facts.
     

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